Qin Army's declaration I

Qin Army: Ancient Roman Corps would spread their body before him over field

The Great Qin Army has been disappeared for nearly 2500 years however leaves the imposing manner and soul along with us. Watching this green head of tomb figure and his firm sight, do you feel the numerous look in those years?
He is not for fun. One stealing, he kills the one; a crowd stealing, he kills the crowd. That’s no mercy.

Pic1: head of Qin Soldier’s figure

Before these soldiers, the Ancient Roman Corps was counted what? They were only a group of slowly worming herd, giving Qin Army up their lives for killing. No one would be left.

Recently many people make kinds of comparisons between the two armies so as to determine which was stronger. It’s difficult to not incur my interest, to open up some fact evidence most closed to history truth, to present a fair view for public.

This is a tomb figure with green face unearthed from No2 Pit of Qinshihuang’s tomb. (Note: Qingshihuang is the 1st emperor of Qin Dynasty. He is also the 1st man who rules the whole China in the name of emperor.) The No2 Pit is for mix-army array. It consists six army-types:
1: Crossbow Man – an army-type for long distance attack
2: Crossbow Cavalry – an army-type for long distance mobile attack with fast speed
3: Pike Man – equipping with long pike of more 9 meters, an army-type for preventing enemy from closing to the near
4: War Chariot – an army-type for fast assault and fistfight. (Note: Qin war chariot is driven by 4 horses on 4 wheels, having a horseman and two soldiers on it.)
5: Halberd Man – an army-type for close fistfight
6: Bow Man – an army type for medium distance attack, including the bow man on chariot

The troop array has large mount of above army types, to provide support for each one, existing as mix formations. I will give introductions in below with all my known.
It’s a pity that only less than 10% area is dug out till now.

Was Ancient Roman Corps powerful? What a joke! From now on who speak that again should have his arse struck.

This is a square array consisting of about 6000 soldiers in No1 Pit. Until now no more than 1000 figures of soldier are unearthed.

At lateral rear to the array, there is No2 Pit of mix array and No3 Pit of command array.

Pic 2: No1 Pit

The three rows of soldier right ahead of us is crossbow formation. Without armors, they don’t go in fistfight, but loose arrow in turns. Their crossbow has available shooting distance of 150 meters.

If enemies ahead are cavalry troop, then each soldier in crossbow formation would has time for only three arrows’ loose. The survived enemies would come at to the near while soldiers finished three launches. Let’s pay attentions to the space between neighboring columns of formation. These spaces are left on purpose of crossbow’s drawing back. When enemies fight to the near, at this time, the crossbow soldiers would move back to the place, waiting for chance of next shoot.
The soldiers behind crossbow formation are Pike Men. They equipped with long pike of 9.1 meters, having all pike blade charging right forward. Those cavalries who maybe brainless would throw themselves on pike blade for death, while some of the brainy have to rein their horses abruptly for hurry stop. Now then, many horses would be reined to raise their forepaws; therefore they turn to quite tall and also good targets. Now the time the crossbow soldiers could carry on their attack. It’s really a massacre!

If Roman Corps’s infantrymen encounter this troop, they would face crueler ending than their cavalry brothers. (Ancient Roma seems have very few cavalry.) Wearing heavy armors, these infantrymen run very slowly. Each crossbow men of Qin army would has launched no less than 10 arrows, when those armored infantries come to the face, of course, if someone survives.

It’s fatal that Qin’s crossbow was mounted with aim-point (front sight) and moreover, their arrows were made with lead technology in those years so that the arrows could fly with the least effect from wind. For the reasons Qin Army’s crossbow can shoot very accurately.
According to American’s test result, a crossbow of Qin/ Han can shoot through a steel plate of 5 mm thick within 100 meter’s distance.

The above introduced defense mode of Qin Army. In assault mode when moving forward, crossbow men would move back to the rear while both armies is closed enough. Meanwhile the war chariots in array would rush out to open a line of space. The halberd men would break enemy’s troops into pieces, following the war chariots ahead.

2000 years before, without any other troop can fight with Qin Army. Facing with the Great Qin Army, the Ancient Roman Corps would not resist even 1st strike, doubtlessly the 2nd and the 3rd. No matter what a troop, once meeting with them, all gets brutal death. If they encounter the mix army in No2 Pit, ha ha, these unlucky even would have no time to cry for mama.

Now let’s go for a look on No2 Pit. The picture below is layout drawing of No2 Pit. The excavation is too much slowly. It seems to be about 2100 until all figures unearthed and restored in orders.
In the drawing, the yellow part is crossbow array. (Note: the Pike Man is a necessary element for crossbow array.)
The red part is mix array of war chariot and cavalry.
The blue part is mix array of halberd man and war chariot.
The green part is war chariot array.
The No2 Pit, owning general conception and arrangement for good mobility, is obviously a mobile mix army array.

Pic 3: layout for No2 Pit of Mix Army Array

The crossbow men of yellow part make up a square formation. Clearly, these men are concentrated as long distance attack force. Their aim is to cover protection on the whole troop array, before neighbor troop’s charging, to prevent their formations from disruption for enemy’s long distance assault.

This troop, keeping offensive formation, is for attack.
The red part is fast mobile attack force all formed up with cavalry and war chariot, used to kill enemy’s soldiers at long distance when fast traveling. (Note: Qin’s cavalry and war chariot are all equipped with crossbow or bow.)
The war chariot of green part is purely a fast mobile attack force. While blue mix array of war chariot and halberd men following is used to break up enemies and surround them.

In general, this army fights as below steps:
When hearing the drumming, which is to lead troop array for attack, the cavalries and war chariots of red square formation would launch primary assault towards enemy at long distance. Soon after, war chariots of green formation make rapid charge, like tank group in modern wars, to smash enemy’s defense. Follow with the green formation, the chariots and halberd men rush into enemy’s array and cut them into fragments.
Without surfer threaten or attack from enemy in distance, the crossbow men of yellow part would keep their hands free, just moving forward enemy together to make closing.

Under the turns of assault as if of wild tigers, did any corps can withstand?
Only the mix formation of red could bring Roman Corps an overall chaos. Don’t reckon on heavy infantry’s pursue and attack. Once they hold up horses a little far away, again large group of arrow is launched towards enemy…

On this photo we can see more clearly. The frontal are three rows of crossbow man. Behind them there are pike men. Pikes all rotted, leaving traces of more than 9 meters. Moreover, pike men’s formation leave passages for drawing back to crossbow men.

Pic 4: No2 Pit of Mix Army Array

Let’s make an assumption. If Roman Corps could resist arrow’s attack against their shields, facing pike formation, they would be kept out of Qin array.
Meanwhile, those war chariots pulled by 4 horses would rush out from Qin array, on extended wheel shaft equipping with fatal weapons. The followed is infantry for fistfight. The halberds in their hands, in contrast with Roman Corps’s short swords, are absolutely not weapon of same level.

Roman soldiers, were collided and trampled by chariots at the front, chopped and prodded by halberds at the rear, crying and howling in as if the hell…

Please note the picture on it’s lowest. There is a row of crossbow man standing towards laterally. It’s the same case at three faces of the army array. These crossbow men are used to watch over conditions of enemy or fight in three directions.

Pic 5: No2 Pit of Mix Army Array

Is there any soldier’s figure from Ancient Roma period? Take it to compare with this one below, to see their military accomplishment. Which is the stronger? !
Qin army of this kind is undefeated!

Pic 6: portrait of Qin soldier

Pic 7: portrait of Qin soldier

Pic 8: portrait of Qin soldier

Let’s have an introduction on army array’s vanguard in No1 Pit.
The 3 rows of soldier in the front is vanguard of army array. For one row 68 soldiers’ figures stand on line. 3 row of soldier add up to 204. These soldiers, wearing long clothes, with leather belt around waist, traveling band on legs, light shoes on feet, tying their hair to a ball, obviously are light infantry. The soldiers almost carry arrows on back and bring long distance weapon such as crossbow, except only several take halberd or pike. Their formation reflect the principal of arm equipping as that long army stand forward and short stand behind. On both sides of vanguard formation, each warrior figure stands with different address. These two warriors, wearing tall coronets, are officers of this formation. In ancient all army arrays need vanguard organized in. An army without vanguard, as if a sword without blade, has no assault ability. Only provided with the best vanguard, this army has nothing unconquerable.

When facing Qin Army, Roman Corps is doomed to failure. And they would die without heads. The heads were cut to ask for noble rank.

Pic 9: vanguard of No1 Pit

Let’s introduce No3 Command Pit.
This picture describes a partial figures formation at south No3 Pit. The No3 Pit had suffered intentional serious damage. Most soldiers’ figure lost heads, body smashed into pieces. Even after repair, they cannot get complete figure.

Here is one of passages to command canter. For serious damage ever, center guards’ formation is just this as below picture after recovering.
This firm command center, roughly leading ten thousand soldiers, is what Ancient Roma Corps has not. So that is also the reason for Roma doomed defeat.

Pic 10: passage to command center

In middle among No3 Pit, a wooden war chariot is fund. The chariot was rotted and left only trace. This chariot has 4 ceramic horses driven at front, and 4 ceramic soldier figures loading on. The middle at back is figure of driver. Two chariot soldiers stand at both sides of him. The 4th figure stand at front is an officer. In general, ancient chariot has 3 men standing on it. At this command center, 4 men on chariot seem uncommon.

Pic 11: command center

So we with reason regard the officer highest commander of the whole Qin troop array.

Sorry, the Pic4 - Pic11 are not yet posted.
Pictrue posting is too difficult on sino. There is too many restain.
Who can tell me how to post it.

Nice, your article makes no sense whatsoever. What makes you think the crossbows would penetrate the shields, do we have any solid figures on the pull strength of Qin crossbows. By all archeological evidence the Qin crossbows were rather primitive. Furthermore Roman armies have dealt with pike formations and horsearchers and charioteers. Theres really nothing that sets the Qin armies pike formations and chariots apart from Greek pike formations or Egyptian chariots.

According to American’s test result, a crossbow of Qin/ Han can shoot through a steel plate of 5 mm thick within 100 meter’s distance.

Click to expand...

Do you have any specific info on that? I find that wierd because a typical Han crossbow would usually be stronger than typical Qin crossbows(260 meters as effective range compared to 200 meters).

And what's the deal of having the superiority complex? Besides, you listed little to no detail on the Roman army for an accurate comparison anyway, even if you can call it a comparison.

By all archeological evidence the Qin crossbows were rather primitive.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. The trigger mechanism is almost similar to a modern shotgun, according to Needleham. Add that with a grid lock and double strings and I would say it's pretty advanced. With an effective range of 200 meters, it's not primitive at all.

What makes you think the crossbows would penetrate the shields, do we have any solid figures on the pull strength of Qin crossbows.

Click to expand...

Wooden shields should be fairly easy to penetrate at close range actually. It was reported that bows from cavalry archers(meaning no more than a draw of 60 pounds) would be able to penetrate a wooden shield. Crossbows with drawweights of 120-180 pounds and above is no problem. Of course, the shield could be made by something else, such as bronze, but then it'll be pretty heavy proporionally to its size, which is why many Greek soldiers tended to discard theirs during the middle of combat, preferably after the arrows stopped flying over their heads.

Qin Army’s declaration II


Peoplepost:
Nice, your article makes no sense whatsoever. What makes you think the crossbows would penetrate the shields, do we have any solid figures on the pull strength of Qin crossbows. By all archeological evidence the Qin crossbows were rather primitive.

Furthermore Roman armies have dealt with pike formations and horsearchers and charioteers. There’s really nothing that sets the Qin armies pike formations and chariots apart from Greek pike formations or Egyptian chariots.

Reply.

Ladies and gentlemen, so sorry to leave the answer column empty for so long time. Surely the article I posted is not a paper to present ancient military technology. I did it just because of its beautiful words. Some questions you picked up are too general but not on specific detail, however I may as well to take the author’s place to provide answers. About Qin Dynasty’s history, for that new evidence has been discovering from Qinshihuang’s tomb, I have to spend some time to gather latest information to answer your questions as below. I know that disagreements or arguments are inevitable. I really hope that everyone read the article will has your opinions or questions delivered with words, no matter that your opinion differ with other’s or not.


Qin’s History
First of all, I must spend some words to tell Qin’s history in rough. Qin as an empire, established in 221BC and elapsed in 207BC, lasted only 15 years. But this brave nation in Chinese history, from a tribe and then a kingdom, finally grew into an unprecedented huge empire within 550 years. At 1100BC, whole China is under rule of Zhou Dynasty. It’s capital located at Hao Jing, almost the same place called Xi An today. Zhou granted more than half Chinese land to many dedicated nobles and ruled with own hands only the large piece of land around capital. At those years, the highest dominator was God’s-son, which means the man dispatched from heaven to rule human world. There was not yet the conception of empire and emperor, although the whole country containing many kingdoms was a vast field. Originally, Qin as merely a small tribe on west of capital, which was in charge of breeding horses for Zhou God’s-son, was not conferred to build kingdom. Besides breeding horses, this tribe was also responsible of capital’s defense, to fight back invasion of minorities from the west and the north. At 771BC, Zhou Dynasty moved her capital to east city about 500km far. To reward Qin for their honest, God’s-son granted the old capital city and surrounding small piece of land to this tribe. Thereafter, as the most west kingdom in China, Qin fought unceasing wars with brutal minority enemies at west and north to protect and expand their territory. After paying great losses, including several early kings’ death, Qin kingdom eventually defeated the northwest enemy and stood up a considerable territory. Meanwhile the Zhou God’s-son had lost control over kingdoms, after a series of war and merger among east kingdoms, on the vast land only six very powerful kingdoms survived finally, standing ahead of Qin. The six powerful kingdoms are Weì(魏), Zhào(赵), Hán(韩), Qí(齐), Chuˇ(楚), Yanˉ(燕). Facing so many powerful rivals than ever, at 356BC this kingdom carried out an overall reform, so-called Shangyang Reform(商鞅变法) in history. By this reform, Qin extremely strengthened her force at economy, military, agriculture and also politics. Since 356BC to 230BC, during about 130 years, Qin army eliminated more than 1.6 millions enemy forces of east six kingdoms. After 230BC, Qin army defeated all other kingdoms and united the whole China within 10 years, before Qin Dynasty’s erection. During the 10 years, Qin army killed enemy soldiers of more than 2 millions. (Note: these achievements did not include killing of minorities, such as Hun that Chinese called Xiongnu.

Contents
Part I Duel between Roman Hoplite’s Shield & Chinese Qin Crossbow
I–1 My opinions about Qin crossbow and Roman shield

I-2 Qin crossbow in Chinese
I-2.1 Differences between bow and crossbow

I-2.2 Qin crossbow VS Roman archer’s weapon

I-2.3 Main factors determining bow/ crossbow’s power
I-2.3.1 Pull strength (draw weight)
I-2.3.2 Bowstring’s length/ Bow’s length
I-2.3.3 Bow/ crossbow’s material and structure
I-2.3.4 Arrow’s weight/ material and air dynamic shape
I-2.3.5 Sighting and trigger device
I-2.3.6 Launch frequency

I-2.4 Performance of Qin crossbows and western counterparts
I-2.4.1 Distance weapon’s different position in the East and the West
I-2.4.2 Distance weapon’s competition: Eastern VS Western

I-3 Contend of Roman Hoplites and Qin army
I-3.1 Brief introduction about Roman Hoplite
I-3.1.1 Hoplite’s weapons
I-3.1.2 Hoplite’s protections

I-3.2 Hoplite’s natural enemy
I-3.2.1 Chinese four-horse-chariot
I-3.2.2 Comparison of chariots, cavalries, and infantries
I-3.2.3 Secrets of Chinese chariot

1-3.3 Given Hoplites meet with Chinese chariots

Part II
……

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Part I Duel between Roman Hoplite’s Shield & Chinese Qin Crossbow
Question:
“What makes you think the crossbows would penetrate the shields, do we have any solid figures on the pull strength of Qin crossbows. By all archeological evidence the Qin crossbows were rather primitive.”


I–1 My opinions about Qin crossbow and Roman shield
“Qin crossbow was rather primitive one”. Yes, archaeologists get this conclusion when all kinds of crossbow and bow from whole world used in cold weapon period are laid before them. Please note, this word from scholars doesn’t mean that Qin crossbow is weaker than other archer’s weapon used in same period. Contrarily it perhaps means the Qin crossbow, as a powerful distance weapon ever, is the ancestor of some later crossbows and an epochal weapon in history. For example, the famous Han crossbow was developed on base of Qin crossbow. Of course, crossbow differ much with bow after all, I will present detailed comment at below, to prove that Qin crossbow was a most powerful distance weapon in those period before 2200 years.

As for the shield of Roman heavy armored infantry that maybe the so-called Hoplite, was there some kind of Qin crossbow could penetrate it? Maybe yes, or no. On my opinion, obviously for these two armies, win or defeat is very probably not depending on whether or not the shield could resist other side’s attack of crossbow. In fact, heavy infantry who handles large shield and sword had ever generally existed in China at some periods. When Qin was merely a kingdom before the dynasty’s erection, her rivals equipped hundreds thousand of heavy infantry like this kind. Those heavy infantries eventually were defeated and no longer an important army-type. With below presentations, I will explain with my known why Qin crossbow is the most powerful distance weapon in its period, and why heavy infantries in China did not get so overwhelming success like their counterparts at Europe.

I-2 Qin crossbow in Chinese
It is not much strange as to someone suspect Qin crossbow’s capacity in front of Roman shields, especially when he is a westerner. In Roman period, Roman heavy infantries could hardly find qualified rivals among enemy’s archers who had ever fight with Roman Corps. Roman didn’t recruit archer from self-civilians. Greek bow, Scythian bow and later waist crossbow were the archers’ weapons, these men were call up from vassal countries to form alliance troop.

However Qin crossbow in its age was a horrible distance weapon, which is not well understand by even nowadays readers. It’s necessary for me to introduce Qin crossbows before making comparison of Qin Crossbow and Roman shield.


I-2.1 Differences between bow and crossbow
We shall understand essential difference between bow and crossbow. Bow was firstly invented in far ancient time. Hunters in old ages used this distance attack tool to earn their living, very like someone today still does for amusement. Shooting with bow, one must bear tiring of arms and aim arrow to track his target, until loosing at the best opportunity. In 12th century, a famous long bow arose at Britain’s Wales that is called “England long bow” later. This bow, with body length of nearly 2m and draw weight of 45kg, could shoot arrows to about 360 meters away. For modern people of us, holding a pulling strength of 45kg and aiming target then shooting right target is really not an easy matter. Comparing it with its old grandpa in ancient time, a crossbow invented by Greek after 400BC, we call it “waist crossbow” or “push-bow” in China, could shoot about 400 meters far. And at almost same time, Chinese also invented a totally different crossbow, which was at the first time generally used in famous war at 341BC. So we can see that a bow, even coming into being thousand years later, has lower shoot range than crossbow has because of limited draw weight. On contrary, one can draw a crossbow in sudden with all his strength, then he is able to hold his breath with relax until switching trigger. So we can get the first conclusion, given that with almost same technology level, crossbow has higher draw weight and shoot range than bow dose.


I-2.2 Qin crossbow VS Roman archer’s weapon
Crossbows were Qin soldier’s most important distance weapons that can be operated by single person. Fighting together with halberd men, war chariot, horse archers, sword men and etc, infantry archers bringing with crossbows form an indispensable part of army array, coordinating with other army type on filed to win the war.

During 4th to 2nd century BC at south Europe, a series of archer’s weapon such as waist crossbow, Greek bow, and Scythian bow arose on this land just nearby Roma. The Greek bow and later Scythian bow could shoot max range of about 200 meters. Waist crossbow (Gastrophetes, also called Belly-bow) shoots much longer, 400 meters but much slower. But in history, those bows or crossbow rarely appeared in Roman native army. Romans recruit only their civilians into army to build their thought powerful heavy armor infantry, the Hoplite. The archers did not come from Roma at all. If needing, Roman would call up archers from their vassal countries to join their troop. Those archers no doubt had never won advantage over the Hoplites, no matter as alliance, or as enemies before those vassals being conquered.

At below let’s introduce capacity of Qin crossbow and compare it with equivalent weapon used by Roman at same period. Then we will see some possible results when Roman shield faces with Qin crossbow, according on their approximate performance.


I-2.3 Main factors determining bow/ crossbow’s power
In addition I have to tell that a bow/ crossbow’s power dose not come from pull strength (draw weight) only. According to my known, besides pull strength, there are at least several main elements determining shoot range and power, such as, bowstring’s length, bow or crossbow’s material and structure, arrow’s weight/ material and air dynamic shape, sighting and trigger device, launch frequency.


I-2.3.1 Pull strength (draw weight)
Pull strength is the most important factor and primary element, when concerning a bow or crossbow’s power. In ideally cases bow/ crossbow’s shoot range or power increases almost linear to pull strength.

According on draw weight, Qin crossbows were divided into at least two types, very like we do on guns with calibration. One is light crossbow with 4 Dan draw weight. Another one is strong crossbow with 12 Dan draw weight, in western called arbalest. As a measure unit of weight in Qin and Han Dynasty, there is a relation between it and today’s unit 1 Dan ≈ 29.76kg. So we know Qin crossbows had draw weight of about 120kg for light one and 350kg for strong one. It’s widely regarded that the light crossbow was weapon for arms, and strong one was for legs and body.

In No.2 Pit of Qinshihuang’s tomb, the three columns of crossbow man as vanguard standing at the most front of Qin army array all handle light crossbow. These about 200 soldiers in array of 6000 just account a very low percent. They do not really play the role of attack force. These soldiers stand together with pike men who are just behind them, to form defensive wall for whole troop array. The true attack archers who take strong crossbows generally are inside. When preparing shoot, archer lies on ground and raise feet up of an angle to ground, with feet on bow truck and string on hook that is tie on waist, loading arrows by own hands. Then the soldier extend feet straight and stretches crossbow with all his strength within feet and body. Finally he take off hook from stretched string and get ready. These offensive archers lie on ground for launching and reloading, adjusting shoot direction and angle on director’s signal. With good shoot range and power, strong crossbows play an important role in dealing with slow moving enemy and fort.


I-2.3.2 Bowstring’s length/ Bow’s length
I have to explain at first that another important factor determining shoot power is draw length but not bow or bowstring’s length itself. We all know that drawing a bow more can shoot further. For archeologist nowadays, however, it’s quite hard to exactly know an ancient bow/ crossbow’s draw length. For the sake of protecting the culture relic, if these bows or crossbows were made with same structure and materials, archeologist can surmise many bows’ draw length on basis of their bowstring’s length, or bow length in the worst condition when bowstring decayed without trace.

For later England longbow, we all know its good shoot range benefits from the bow length of nearly 2 meters, although with quite low pull strength contrasting with crossbow. In some cases however, there’s an exception for some primitive bow/ crossbows whose body was cast with bronze or iron, because these bows were too hard to open a considerable length.

Qin crossbows, no matter for light or strong one, have much less bow length or string length comparing with 1400 years later England longbow. The length information of Qin light crossbow and strong crossbow is listed as below.

----------------------Bowstring’s length---------Bow’s length
Light crossbow:-------124 cm,-------------------144 cm,
Strong crossbow:---- 140 cm,-------------------176.1 cm,

For composite and compound bow/ crossbow, including Qin Crossbow, longer bowstring means the larger draw length and better shoot range. Of course, a bow/ crossbow cannot be made with unlimited body. An overlong bow/ crossbow will bring soldiers inconvenience and low efficiency, or even can’t be used at some areas such as thick forest. It is rarely seen in history that a bow/ crossbow for war have length more than 2 meters, except waist crossbow and crossbow device or ballista.


I-2.3.3 Bow/ crossbow’s material and structure
As far as developing of bows, they are divided into monomeric, composite and compound according material and structure. Monomeric bow often was made with wood, bamboo, later with bronze or iron. Comparing with monomeric bows, composite or compound bows were easier to get higher draw length because of its good flexibility. They were made with wood or bamboo, horn, sinew, silk, glue and etc. Later bronze was used on bow/ crossbow to strengthen its body to get higher draw weight.

As every body knows, drawing a bow/ crossbow is a process to store human energy into bow/ crossbow’s body. If we use F(x) to present the bow force at the time that we have drawn length of x. Then we know, when the bow is drawn to maximum draw length L, the total energy we stores in bow/ crossbow can be expressed with below equation.
Q(L)=∮F(x)*dx--------------------------------------(Eq. 1)

For an ideal bow/crossbow, its every parts are totally flexible. Bow force increases linear to draw length. After abundant bending and being stored enough energy, compound bow/ crossbow can fully restore its original condition once released. So the relation between bow force F(l) and draw length l may be expressed by
F(l)=k*l+F0.------------(F0 is bow’s original force.)--- (Eq. 2)

And then maximum draw weight is Fm=k*L+ F0.--------(Eq. 3)

Finally we can get total energy stored in bow/ crossbow’s body
Q(L)=0.5kL2+F0L-------------------------------------(Eq. 4)
with Eq.1 and Eq.2, by integrating energy at maximum draw length of L.
The constant energy item, F0L generally much smaller than 0.5kL2, can be ignored in rough calculation. So we regard the approximate conclusion Q(L)≈0.5Fm*L.

As far as ancient bow/ crossbows, they can hardly reach above ideal condition. Some part of material will yield slightly and not fully restore. The bow force doesn’t increase linear to draw length, so some part of energy cannot release for bow’s permanent deformation.

All in one, multiple material with good flexibility strengthen a compound bow/ crossbow much not only of higher draw weight but also of better draw length than monomeric bow. The crossbow, setting stock on basis of compound bow, indeed has more advantages over its rivals.

By archeology truth, Qin people have grasped technology to make compound bow/ crossbow early before 200 BC. On strong crossbow relic of wood, scientist discovered trace of buffalo horn, sinew, silk and bronze slices. The bronze slices are ever regarded a kind of decoration on crossbow. Now it’s sure of that is used to strengthen crossbow’s body to get higher draw weight and flexibility. There is another feature different with later crossbows in China that a cross wood bar is fixed on bow-body paralleled with string to enhance crossbow’s draw weight. Hundreds of years later, as technology developed, this cross wood bar finally disappeared from Han crossbow.


I-2.3.4 Arrow’s weight/ material and air dynamic shape
Arrow weight
When speaking of arrow’s weight we must explain bow/ crossbow’s energy efficiency. As a rule of thumb, a light arrow can fly further than heavy one, while shooting with same bow and with same force. In addition, the heavy arrow has more energy than light one at same distance when other factors are same.
Shooting with light arrow, some parts of bow/ crossbow active with arrow together and get higher speed when arrow looses, than it dose with heavy arrow. With same bow/ crossbow, shooting light arrow gets lower energy efficiency than shooting heavy one. That means light arrow is superior on shoot distance while heavy arrow on armor piercing ability.
Long before Qin people established their empire, Qin army as well as their enemies had widely adopted some kinds of heavy arrow, which was amounted with a long and heavy arrowhead to specially deal with enemy soldier or horse who was protected by good armor. Those armor-pierce arrowheads have almost same section appearance with ordinary light ones. With special arrowhead of several times length of ordinary, at same distance, heavy arrow launching by strong crossbow could break through shield, armor plate of chariot easily, suffering quite low resistance from armor material and air. It acts quite like modern armor-piercing bullet using on tanks.

In No.2 Pit, archeologists discovered some heavy arrowhead of more than 100g weight and 41cm long. They are believed particularly prepared for well-armored target.

Material
Among materials for making arrow, it includes wood/ bamboo/reed for bar, feather for tail, and the most important copper or iron for arrowhead. On almost every ancient metal arrowhead, no matter where they were made or what material made with, they own a common feature that good balance of strength, roughness and hardness.
In period of Qin Dynasty, iron weapons began take place of bronze ones, but bronze was still dominant. People could make bronze swords of hard and sharp blade and also flexible body, by properly adding tin and lead to control bronze’s hardness and roughness. Unlike sword’s blade or body, arrowhead could not be made too hard and brittle, either too soft. A hard but brittle arrowhead will smash when shot on armor, although it’s very sharp for killing enemies without armor. A flexible but soft arrowhead will deform and get invalid for armor. Moreover, all arrowheads were cast with single material in once for convenient manufacturing with great quantity. So it seem extremely important to control tin and lead’s ratio in bronze to get good arrowhead’s overall performance.
Qin arrowhead’s metal ratio and hardness is listed as below against sword’s.

----------------------Tin----------------------Lead -----------------Hardness
Arrowhead:--------11.10-12.57%,--------3-7.71%,------------HB80-150,

Sword blade:-------21.38%,----------------2%,------------------>HV300,
Sword body:--------8.13%,----------------13.14%,
(Note: Parameters about sword blade come from a Qin sword. Parameters about sword body come from another Chinese sword made before that Qin sword.)

Air dynamic shape
An arrow’s air dynamic issues make people not help themselves associating its tail-feather, which acts very like a rudder. It ever appeared in history that arrows were made with twin edge tail-feather, cross tail-feather, or no-feather at rare periods. However the tail’s feature scarcely changed during a quite long period once its fashion fixed.
In this article, the air dynamic shape we are talking about more concerns arrowhead’s shape. At those years from 500BC to 200BC, Chinese developed very many kinds of arrowhead during intense and endless war among the kingdoms. Early arrowheads were made like a flat fish-head. It soon turned into two sharp edges and some with inverted blade. Later arrowhead with tri-blade appears. Finally Qin army absorbed former technology and developed an optimized arrowhead structure, which is more like approximate tri-angle cone with three smooth arc ridges. This arrowhead has three lateral surfaces with profile very like modern bullet.
That is sure that Qin army’s distinctive arrowheads were the most advanced in world at its period within even many hundreds years later. On basis of this arrowhead, Qin army invented prolonged heavy head to deal with armor and hollow one to fill poison for especial use.

Qin army’s tri-angle arrowhead owns the lowest section and lateral area, with same weight, comparing with flat or tri-blade one. This unique shape enables the arrow fly with lowest wind effect of deviation and hindrance than ever. Shooting with Qin arrows, soldier could get more straight and lower trajectory, so was easier to aim and shoot accurately.


I-2.3.5 Sighting and trigger device
It’s no doubt that a crossbow own large advantage over bow on sighting. Just as mention as before, shooting with crossbow will enable archers relaxed and accurate aiming. A variety of sighting and trigger devices ever appeared and were widely used in world history. Qin crossbow’s trigger got the most famous for its ingenious design so that crossbows in following dynasties almost copied this trigger style.
Qin crossbow’s sighting/ trigger device is made up with three small elements. This device’s string-teeth will sink at a sudden when trigger is pressed. Thus arrow’s loosing need so tiny force that bringing no vibration and negative effect to getting precision. This device enables string-teeth to rise to initial condition automatically when archer draws string to full position. It can also help archers aim more precise, working quite like sighting device on early artillery. Han crossbow inherited this device and then carved range-line to direct archers better.
Qin crossbow’s sighting/ trigger devices were designed so perfect that help soldiers shoot accurately and conveniently. Then within battles of so long period with minorities, include Hun, why those minorities hadn’t grasped and adopted this device to improve distance weapons of their own? In fact, Hun’s soldiers always fight with their bows. Even when expelled to Europe, those pure Hun horse-archers still fight against Roman with bows. The modern archeologists give us the answer, that Qin crossbows as well as other weapons making on a set of uniform standards with large scale was too difficult a technology for Hun to learn.

It’s difficult to not a pity that Hun had not learned Qin crossbow’s technology and brought it to Europe. That is maybe one of the reasons that European’s archers had never achieved as splendid success as east armies did.


I-2.3.6 Launch frequency
Qin army’s crossbows were famous as horrible weapons among his enemies, with fierce power and astonished range. These crossbows entitled Qin army large advantages over enemy archers, such as Hun’s horse-archers, who always fight with light bows on horseback. However, crossbow brought Qin army more power and meanwhile also inevitable a key weak point, that Qin crossbows generally could only shoot with much low frequency than ordinary bows did.
Of course, there were also some exceptions in history that only happened on so called supermen. It was recorded in history books that someone could shoot 16 arrows with strong crossbow in one minute and without rest till 60 arrows. And a very famous general (Liguang 李广) shoot with special bow of 10 Dan (about 300kg) easily also so that his special bow was called liguang-bow (李广弓) by later people. That’s absolutely hard to image for today’s people. When operating by common soldiers, the approximate launch speed performance of bow and crossbows are recorded as below.

England longbow:----8-12 1/min
Qin light bow:---------4-6 1/min
Qin Strong bow:------3-4 1/min

Qin crossbows bloomed before 400AD for its offensive power. And then they went downhill later for low shooting speed than bows. This weapon existing and developing in particular period and particular geography area was decided by its surrounding ecology of weapons. When facing well armored infantries, or horse-archers with near distance bows, crossbows of great power and range were aroused. They did not disappear on field until encountering heavy cavalries, who were perfect combination of assault, armor and speed.

However, before crossbows abort from war thousand of years later, their important role for war did not cut little due to low shooting speed.


I-2.4 Performance of Qin crossbows and western counterparts
We have spent many words on crossbow’s basic principal. Many will ask then which was stronger in comparison of Qin crossbow and Roman’s. Shoot range of weapons is most eloquent explanation.

I-2.4.1 Distance weapon’s different position in the East and the West
In fact by so detailed introduction of above, I believe that many people have already established a rough image about Qin crossbow’s dreadful power. Before making direct comparison between Qin crossbows and Roman archer’s weapon, however I must state that these two distance weapons had ever gotten total different positions in war at all.

In Qin army, crossbow man was a related independent and indispensable army type. They made a harmonious balance with halberd men, war chariot, horse archers, sword men and etc. This weapon got splendid achievement in wars with enemy, especially in wars with minority as to Hun. In very beginning, bows or crossbows were not as powerful as I said at above. For getting more powerful performance, shoot range and armor-piercing ability, Qin army made a series of improvement on this weapon. Crossbow’s body was extremely strengthened, adopting better materials, and by giving up some secondary performance such as launch frequency and comfort. For a modern man, lying on ground and drawing a Qin crossbow open with whole body’s strength seems a quite painful activity. At least frequent operation of this kind will do harm to human’s backbone. However, in Qin Dynasty the primary of army was to enable their crossbow an overwhelming weapon over enemies. Problem of low frequency could be solved by array of more soldiers; problem of discomfort could be overcome by soldier’s courage.

Contrary, it’s another case for them in the West. Compound bow or crossbow arose in Europe even earlier than that in China. Greek bow, Scythian bow and waist crossbow were famous as west presentation of archer’s weapon in same period of Qin Dynasty. However Roman did not watch archer’s army with attention. When needing, Roman called up archers from their vassal countries to form alliance army. I think it a very important reason of Roman’s attitude to distance weapons that Roman did not regard those archer’s army a essential threat to them. Due to this opinion and surrounding situation of enemies, bow and crossbows of Europe made little progress till Roma Empire ruined thoroughly.


I-2.4.2 Distance weapon’s competition: Eastern VS Western

Weapon’s name---------------Shoot range with light arrow-------launch frequency
Qin light crossbow------------≈250 meters-------------------------4-6 1/min
Qin strong crossbow---------≈900 meters-------------------------3-4 1/min

Greek bow----------------------≈200 meters-------------------------8-12 1/min
Scythian bow------------------≈200 meters-------------------------8-12 1/min
Europe waist crossbow-------≈400 meters--------------------------3-6 1/min

England longbow--------------≈300 (360 another view) meters----8-12 1/min

From data, we make the conclusion.
1. When Qin army and Roman corps meets on battle field, both sides must leave empty ground of at least 900 meters wide for charging.
2. If they shoot each other, Qin army no doubt would be dominant.
3. When rival’s soldiers charged to 150 meters or closer, Roman archers could bring enemies more injury by speedy launch. But Roman array would have lost seriously during the distance from 600 to 150 meters.


I-3 Contend of Roman Hoplites and Qin army
Hoplites were absolute main force of Roman. In Roman’s view, when facing Qin army and crossbow archers, they would rather charge with heavy armored Hoplites array from the front but not with pike nor chariots group. Can Roman heavy infantry resist Qin crossbow’s shoot? Or for Qin archers, with strong crossbow and special armor-piercing arrows, can they crush enemy’s attack by breaking through rival’s shield and armor? I am not willing to give my view about this technology problem here. No one has made exact test with Qin crossbow and Roman’s equipments. However, according to Qin crossbow’s shoot range and special arrow’s weight and structure, it’s not very hard for audience to guess the result.

When Roman Corps meet a Qin army whose archers carry no strong crossbow or armor-piercing arrows, could Roman Hoplites defeat Qin army like they did in Europe? I think not. China is not Europe and Qin army were not any enemy Roman had ever faced. As for Roman’s absolute main force, those heavy infantries fortunately would encounter their natural enemy – four-horse chariot.


I-3.1 Brief introduction about Roman Hoplite
Hoplites were recognized as heavy infantry in its age. The most important is protection. This was a relative conception depending on circumstance of surrounding weapons. Hoplite’s protection, in any aspect, cannot compare with later Mongol heavy cavalry or Europe heavy cavalry. Just in those several hundred years, in whole Europe, some part of Africa and Asia, Romans found that the enemies could hardly do much harm to their Hoplites.

I-3.1.1 Hoplite’s weapons
Javelin
Romans in early time all used Greek light javelins. Since beginning of 400BC, Guillaume heavy javelin was adopted. And after Marius Reform, Roman’s heavy javelins were redesigned. To forbid enemy to throw javelin back or use it as spear, new javelin was designed easy to break or bend once nailed on shield or armor. At downside Romans could not use this javelin as spear.

Generally a Hoplite brought two javelins in battle, each one of 1.5-2 meters long and 4-5kg weight. This javelin often could be thrown to 30 meters far. It’s said to reach nearly 100 yards (91.4 meters) far when using throw-device.

Short sword
Roman’s short sword learned from Spanish, often 5cm wide and 40-60cm long, heavy and sharp. Their swords of early period were made quite long. However, when soldiers were drawing out swords with right hands, their left hands had to move shields aside a little. Thus soldiers could not stand to a thick array. Moreover, process of drawing sword reduced array’s protection capacity and was likely to incur enemy’s distance assault. Later Romans swords were shortened and hung at same side of fighting hands, so Hoplites didn’t longer move their shields aside when getting to ready for fight.

Roman short sword was indeed a good weapon that could slash, stab and didn’t fear mutual slash with enemy’s weapon. Once these well-armed and well-armored Hoplites with good line rushed to rivals’ near face, it almost meant that the slaughter on enemy infantry begins.


I-3.1.2 Hoplite’s protections
Armor and helmet
Romans originally wore squama armors and then chain armors. The former was too heavy and the second was weak against slash. They didn’t get a pleasant armor until their particular Larica armor was invented in 100BC. Lorica mainly protects soldier’s head, collar, trunk and shoulders. Although Roman Lorica had many shortcomings in comparing with medieval Europe Plate Armor, it had come to a new level than ever to be. Lorica was such a classic that not only infantry and also cavalry wore it.

Roman Lorica is constructed with many slices of iron. The armor and helmet add up to no more than 18.1kg (40 pounds).

Shield
Roman Shield appeared after invasion of Guillaume. The shield is wood, with leather cover outside and iron foil nailed at edge, filled an iron sheet between leather and wood at the center. This shield looks like a semicircle in survey and like rectangle in facade, of 1.25 meters high and 0.8 meters wide. Shield’s leather cover and iron edge could help it prevent cracking along wood’s vein when suffering slash from enemy’s weapon. And iron sheet at center area was mainly used to reduce threat from arrows.

Roman Shield was not as strong as our image. It weight about 9kg (20 pounds). The shield and its iron sheet were made very thin because it has to cover very large square. (A pure wood same size shield within 9kg limit has thickness of less than 0.75cm; given density of wood is 0.8g/cm3.)


I-3.2 Hoplite’s natural enemy
Just as mentioned above, once Hoplites with good line rushed to rivals’ near face, they were almost invincible before enemy infantries. Archers standing there means waiting for death unless running away. Halberd-men and pike-men were very difficult to resist Hoplites in fistfight. Cavalries, unless moving around and launching distance attack from Hoplite’s back, would give no much help to battle condition.

It’s a pity that soldiers were not able to make fistfight on horseback at those years when stirrup had not come into being. The early so-called cavalry pike-men and cavalry swords-men could only ride to enemy’s back and then set out attack on their own feet, just like infantries did. The real cavalry appeared right after stirrup was invented. The most original Chinese stirrup appeared at about 200BC when Qin dynasty elapsed. Before that, cavalries of Qin and Hun all in fact were horse-archers. Stirrup had not been widely used in Chinese army till 140BC in Han Dynasty. European started to learn making stirrup much late at 300-500AD, after Hun’s invasion. In fact, it’s Hun who brought Europe this technology from east.

Qin army’s opportunity exists only before Roman Hoplites rush to right ahead. Fighting with heavy infantries, a well-armored and fast moving fistfight troop would be the best choice. For example, all heavy infantries turned meaningless when facing Mongol heavy cavalry. In Qin army, there were fortunately a troop, with very good armor, speedy charge, good attack and moreover shock, which is right the natural killer to Roman Hoplites, the four-horse-chariot.


I-3.2.1 Chinese four-horse-chariot
In the very long period before Roma ruined, chariot of many kinds appeared in many place in the world. They were mainly single-horse or twin-horse driven except Chinese four-horse-chariot. Very like other place in the world, the most original chariots were also of single-horse or twin-horse. But Chinese chariot technology developed much faster than western. In 700BC, four-horse-chariot had been already widely used in army. For adopting more advanced technology, four-horse-chariot reached incomparable performance of both defence and attack than ever.

Qin chariot had three soldiers standing on it. One was the driver; the other two were for fight. The three soldiers and four horses all wore heavy squama armors. Rolling cutters were available to amount on shaft’s ends on requirement. Two soldiers brought bows, crossbow, halberds and shield on chariot. They had very good attack and defence abilities against rival’s infantries. In addition, Qin army’s four-horse-chariots were divided into light chariot and heavy chariot. The heavy chariot was amounted thicker armor on cart; while light one had bette

Please merge this onto the RvH thread; I mean, the guy has some really good posts, but it still doesn't deserve its own thread.

New:

Also, can we get one of those Roman-experts back? This looks as though it'll be a satisfying and long fight.

Inst said:

Please merge this onto the RvH thread; I mean, the guy has some really good posts, but it still doesn't deserve its own thread.

New:

Also, can we get one of those Roman-experts back? This looks as though it'll be a satisfying and long fight.

Click to expand...

Your suggestion cannot be regarded as unreasonable. However I am indeed writing story of Qin Dynasty. Although Qin as an empire had been kept for only 15 years, after all this ambitious nation went a long way of more than 900 years. Eventually this aggressive kingdom ended orderless condition of whole China, and soon also ended his own life. Han Dynasty inherited much from Qin at politics, military, technique and even legislation.

But I am exactly writing Qin story. Studying on Qin and Han two empire, you will find Han Empire was more like a warm giant, even he ever gave enemies cruel strike; this action accidentally changed European history. Contrary Qin more represents ambitious and wild element in today’s Chinese people. Qin or Han, they are different. Writing the articles is to introduce not mainly on weapon technology but on world-conception of Chinese people.

Thanks for your view any way. And welcome more fans on this area to join the discussion.

I'd like to argue that with each dynastic change, there is a possibility for a complete change in culture and zeitgeist. Thus, the Qin dynasty might not represent any strain of modern Chinese culture, whether Mainland, Diaspora, or Taiwanese.

Inst said:

Please merge this onto the RvH thread; I mean, the guy has some really good posts, but it still doesn't deserve its own thread.

New:

Also, can we get one of those Roman-experts back? This looks as though it'll be a satisfying and long fight.

Click to expand...

Maybe, but a good discussion is more fun. I like his Qin info, but the part about 'Roman Hoplites' is a mix of all famous western troops glued into one. It also contains many inconsitencies, not just about historical info, but also things like implying that you need stirrups to be able to charge home (not needed: you need a special saddle for that), etc.

More importantly, it's not the individual weapon's effect in an ideal situation that decides who wins, but the methods and training of the troops themselves.
For example, many cavalry armies were heavily armored, not because they charged home to fight it out up close, but to be able to resist ranged attacks (bolts, arrows, javelins, etc) so as to deploy their own ranged attack. If charged by less armored melee cavalry (screened by open formation, speedy cavalry to avoid long range losses), those heavies would lose, no matter they had better equipment.

Qin could no doubt outfight most Geek hoplite phalanxes, because those were mostly citizen soldiers (militias) with very simple tactics. Early Roman armies were the same. Later ones not so. A better match up would be Qin's contemporaries in the Middle East. I feel that especially the Seleucids would give Qin a big problem (and maybe even vice versa).

For writing a book I'd suggest staying on focus and talk about your expertise (Qin), add much more data about HOW all those troops were employed (tactics, size of commands, etc etc) and a lot less (none) 'what if' comparisons.

BeeJay