PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
Does anybody know if the new APS can hit APFSDS rods? Some modern day penetrators already exceed 700 or 800mm in length like the M829A4 and performance will probably only get better with new propellants. The >700mm rated armor could be penetrated already if there's no APS interference.
Afganit can allegedly intercept projectiles up to 1700m/s which is just enough to hit projectiles like M829. Though the effectiveness is debated as a direct hit can only at best deform or deflect the projectile by a bit but not enough to stop it like with HEAT/ATGMs but it could possibly be enough to reduce the effectiveness of the projectile to the point where the base armor is enough to stop it.
 

qwerty3173

Junior Member
Registered Member
Does anybody know if the new APS can hit APFSDS rods? Some modern day penetrators already exceed 700 or 800mm in length like the M829A4 and performance will probably only get better with new propellants. The >700mm rated armor could be penetrated already if there's no APS interference.
Most of these penetration figures relies heavily on frontal break-off steel tips that degrades the effectiveness of ERA and NERA. From what I can gather, the frontal block is almost entirely based of titanium alloys and ceramic materials, thus the extremely high KE-to-weight ratio but not very impressive defense against HEAT rounds. Another effect of this is that specialized structures designed to shake off reactive force from ERA and NERA is now completely ineffective, meaning at longer ranged engagements (>2km for example) the armor is already sufficient to stop all current penetrators. The 35t weight is already an excellent future-proof as slapping on more ERA is an easy and huge improvement in defense against future better rounds.
 

serse

Junior Member
Registered Member
Does anybody know if the new APS can hit APFSDS rods? Some modern day penetrators already exceed 700 or 800mm in length like the M829A4 and performance will probably only get better with new propellants. The >700mm rated armor could be penetrated already if there's no APS interference.
Israel using iron fist aps suçcessfully intercepted 105mm apdsfs round,and that was more than 10 years ago
 

alanch90

Junior Member
Registered Member
Afganit can allegedly intercept projectiles up to 1700m/s which is just enough to hit projectiles like M829. Though the effectiveness is debated as a direct hit can only at best deform or deflect the projectile by a bit but not enough to stop it like with HEAT/ATGMs but it could possibly be enough to reduce the effectiveness of the projectile to the point where the base armor is enough to stop it.

Israel using iron fist aps suçcessfully intercepted 105mm apdsfs round,and that was more than 10 years ago
Its possible though not yet claimed that GL-6 can defeat KE threats.

As for Type 100 ballistic protection, its not enough to defeat the current top 120-125mm rounds. But the bulk of APFSDS available worldwide (also in the region) are DM53 clones against which Type 100 armor can defeat at longer ranges (starting from about 1.5-2km) at which it will enjoy overmatch thanks to its state of the art sensors.

On the other hand, the higher powered 105mm gun also has the future potential to fire rounds more capable than DM53.
 

DanWangJZ

New Member
Registered Member
Anyone seen the new stats on Type 100 and can verify the claims on what kind of tank repels or protects against which shell or other projectile types? Another post from lyman2003 but curious if any of you would back it.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
Anyone seen the new stats on Type 100 and can verify the claims on what kind of tank repels or protects against which shell or other projectile types? Another post from lyman2003 but curious if any of you would back it.
In the latest Chahuahui, it is mentioned the picture is legit and the display board is probably genuinely from NORINCO though the stats are more or less "Take as a reference" and not fully accurate or exact.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Afganit can allegedly intercept projectiles up to 1700m/s which is just enough to hit projectiles like M829. Though the effectiveness is debated as a direct hit can only at best deform or deflect the projectile by a bit but not enough to stop it like with HEAT/ATGMs but it could possibly be enough to reduce the effectiveness of the projectile to the point where the base armor is enough to stop it.
I don't think GL-6 (or Trophy, or any other Iron fist type around the world) is designed for darts. Which is a right thing to do.

They're first and foremost designed against classic actual tank threats (ATGMs, RPGs) at manageable footprint and risks, and sufficient future proofing. This leads to relatively light interceptors, just enough to initiate thin shell far enough from the vehicle. If you're bold enough and can ensure intercepts happen far enough as to keep system operational, you can even design for it to be hand-loaded during pauses in combat(note that type 100 IFV, together with airborne vehicles, where there's straighforward access to APS, carries just 2/launcher; only on a tank where crew sits in forward capsule it's 4/launcher; which is apparently not ideal and comes with undesirable inertia/risks, but this is a design choice).

Afghanit is unique design (DPRK tried and switched to Iron Fists too!) for a very good reason.


APFSDS is indeed the reason why Afghanit is so damn chunky. The story goes is that Soviets first managed to intercept APFSDS back in 1980s with Drozd - original powerful 107mm interceptors just tore APFSDS in half, destabilizing at least the rear part completely and far enough to be consequentual. But it happened only accidentally, as speed was obviously far in excess of designed parameters of the system.

As such, they spent several decades making this performance consistent - and reportedly got it right at a point when it was completely irrelevant. And compromises were so obvious that Afghanit comes in two versions:
- heavy, which is indeed designed to intercept heavy darts, but does so at huge weight, risks and low key metrics against actual threats:
only 180 deg coverage, no top attack intercept, significant operational damage (no, 107mm airburst optimized for pressure wave isn't harmless to tank), significant risks (10 107mm HE shells lie happily on your top armor). And since this is indeed an issue, it comes at x2 weight/volume, as coverage and top attack is covered by a second, integrated but separate soft kill system.

-light, which still keeps compromised performance and can't kill darts(as if it matters, even torn dart will probably tear through light vehicle anyway), but at least provides 360 deg coverage.
It can't intercept top attack, and doesn't have ammo depth extender(by system design every narrow sector can use 2 charges at most).

This probably can be translated at every other APS design - there is no unsolvable magic in calculating intercept point; and electronics work fast enough. The problem is indeed reacting fast enough and damaging the dart enough, it's ultimately a thick heavy metal rod with extreme momentum.

Note that Drozd/Afghanit doesn't spent time neither aiming nor for any trajectory - just shots forward the closest interceptor available. At this point it turned into a pyrric victory: sure, APFSDS is nice, but at what cost? It's a suboptimal horizontal only interceptor, with lots of primary(huge hole in ERA right where it matters), secondary(work damage) and tertiary (threat to own vehicle when hit) damage consequences, yet only 180 deg hard kill coverage.
The only excuse is tbh Armata family itself, all that makes sense in a new heavy chassis with lighter unmanned gunhouse instead of proper turret. They had both the weight/volume margins, which other modern tanks other than type 100 don't, and that thin unmanned turret to defend. On all lighter vehicles - i'd think Russia would rather have GL-6. And even on actual Russian production tanks - it isn't Afghanit, it's Arena-m. No APFSDS fallacy, but covers 360 degrees, does top attack protection and integrates ERA.

TLDR: the point is not whether other APS designs can intercept darts - they can try under right conditions, but they are not designed to. And that is a right choice. I wonder if someone in Soviet/Russian APS design(or military - especially military, overgrown children there is a norm) literally desided to do it b/c it's cool, and no one could or bothered to stop faulty decision over decades.
 
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