Modern close air support CAS

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ohan_qwe

Junior Member
Hello i don't know what forum this should be under so I post it here.

Why is there no modern CAS that replace the Su25 and A10? A lot of the wars today is against terrorists/irregulars without advanced air defenses so shouldn't there be a market for a cheap CAS in the middle east and Africa. Is it because of that the CAS is too vulnerable against manpads or because that the drones are a better alternative.

A F22 is a lot better than a F15 from 1980 but will a modern CAS be much better than a A10/Su25 with modern optics at killing insurgents?
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
ohan_qwe said:
Hello i don't know what forum this should be under so I post it here.

Why is there no modern CAS that replace the Su25 and A10? A lot of the wars today is against terrorists/irregulars without advanced air defenses so shouldn't there be a market for a cheap CAS in the middle east and Africa. Is it because of that the CAS is too vulnerable against manpads or because that the drones are a better alternative.

A F22 is a lot better than a F15 from 1980 but will a modern CAS be much better than a A10/Su25 with modern optics at killing insurgents?
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this one should be moved to air force section.

but to answer your question, A-10's function are mostly replaced by apache, which is a lot more versatile.

i wouldnt rely too much on drones for CAS at this point yet, better to have a pilot up there calling the shots. even with pilots though it might not go well...remember the four Canadians who died in Afghanistan early in the war? we were strafed A-10's cannon.
 
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Scratch

Captain
I don't see Apaches really taking over from the Warthog. As all attack helicopters, Apaches are great assets on the battlefield when it comes to supporting ground troops in the fight. However, over many years AHs & A-10s have worked side by side complementing each other, yielding superbly succesfull effects.
That is, in part, because there are things that are unique to fixed wing aircraft. Speed is one, even when talking about the Hog. Weapons load (warhead size) another, sometimes a 500 pounder or more is necessary to do the job.
FW aircraft, in contrast to AHs, can be air-refueled, which brings persistence.

The A-10 is a uniquely capable CAS aircraft. However, in times of dwindelling budgets, axing single purpose aircraft may become an option. With new munitions that put precission guidance on small warheads, I see chances of offsetting the loss of the awesome GAU-8. Besides the standard JDAM / Paveway bombs, aircraft can now carry multiple small warheads, each of which able to take out a target. I'm talking about stuff like ViperStrike, Griffin, APKWS ...
On the other hand, CAS is not someting restricted to COIN warfare. It does have it's regular place in symmetric, large formation warfare also. And here survivability is an issue.

On the UAV front, they are great for providing armed overwatch with their persistance and allowing a first response. But in some ways they're also a bit limited in versatility.

By the way, in CAS it's not necessarily the pilot calling the shots, but the FAC/JTAC, a role that may be taken by a qualified aircrew.

For the "affordable aircrft for smaller nations" problem, there's a nice thread in the World Armed Forces" section. The Embrear A-29 Super Tucano and the new Textron AirLand Scorpion come to my mind as great choices.
A weaponized version of the Yak-130, M-346 or Hawk T-2 would also do quiet nice, I believe.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
Scratch said:
I don't see Apaches really taking over from the Warthog. As all attack helicopters, Apaches are great assets on the battlefield when it comes to supporting ground troops in the fight. However, over many years AHs & A-10s have worked side by side complementing each other, yielding superbly succesfull effects.
That is, in part, because there are things that are unique to fixed wing aircraft. Speed is one, even when talking about the Hog. Weapons load (warhead size) another, sometimes a 500 pounder or more is necessary to do the job.
FW aircraft, in contrast to AHs, can be air-refueled, which brings persistence.

The A-10 is a uniquely capable CAS aircraft. However, in times of dwindelling budgets, axing single purpose aircraft may become an option. With new munitions that put precission guidance on small warheads, I see chances of offsetting the loss of the awesome GAU-8. Besides the standard JDAM / Paveway bombs, aircraft can now carry multiple small warheads, each of which able to take out a target. I'm talking about stuff like ViperStrike, Griffin, APKWS ...
On the other hand, CAS is not someting restricted to COIN warfare. It does have it's regular place in symmetric, large formation warfare also. And here survivability is an issue.

On the UAV front, they are great for providing armed overwatch with their persistance and allowing a first response. But in some ways they're also a bit limited in versatility.

By the way, in CAS it's not necessarily the pilot calling the shots, but the FAC/JTAC, a role that may be taken by a qualified aircrew.

For the "affordable aircrft for smaller nations" problem, there's a nice thread in the World Armed Forces" section. The Embrear A-29 Super Tucano and the new Textron AirLand Scorpion come to my mind as great choices.
A weaponized version of the Yak-130, M-346 or Hawk T-2 would also do quiet nice, I believe.
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while fixed-wing aircrafts do have some attributes that are irreplaceable by helicopters, the OP there is specifically asking about anti-terror missions, and in that context i dont see A10 as being irreplaceable. yes being faster allows for quicker reaction but so does F-16, and apache isnt all that slow either.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
CAS is not the preferred method of destroying enemy from the air. Ideally, you want recon to id the enemies formations before they come into close combat with your formations or retreating and bomb them while they are still in marching column. for example,
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A10 and SU25 are specialist who overlap. They are intended start to finish as tank busters. The reason there seems no modern replacement is that in the minds of the top modern commanders the threat of tank on tank is diminished by the end of the Cold war. Anti tank choppers and multi role fighters like F35 and Rafel have absorbed part of the tank buster role.
The rising CAS threat is more the insurgency then large scale conventional Army on Army that the A10 and Su25 were built for. This demands a more flexible less costly response as the nations most likely to be dealing with a insurgent attack are those with less money to enforce there boarders and laws. The response is the increasing number of Coin trainers like scorpion and the A29. There is also response in the form of the Specter clones we now see in development by Europe, the middle east and Asia. Transports fitted as precision guided munition platforms. As conflicts continue in the lower to middle intensity with major powers reluctant to actively engage in Mechanization on Mechanization wars the A10 and platforms of it's class are a fading breed. They will continue as warhorses until they can no longer be used due to cost.

If however the large armor Mechanized unit on Mechanized unit model falls back into fashion due to the rise of a large power with a substantial Armored force likely to engage across land then the tank buster model could come back.
 
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Scratch

Captain
pla101prc said:
while fixed-wing aircrafts do have some attributes that are irreplaceable by helicopters, the OP there is specifically asking about anti-terror missions, and in that context i dont see A10 as being irreplaceable. yes being faster allows for quicker reaction but so does F-16, and apache isnt all that slow either.
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Sure thing, I wasn't so much trying to paint the A-10 as irreplacable as I was trying to show that I believe other aircraft, with modern munitions, are better suited to take over the CAS role from the Hog then AHs.
For the more often soft targets in COIN, even in a target rich environment, the many new, small size, precission guided munitions are a good way of making other aircraft nicely suited for that mission.

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Btw, while Air Interdiction is of course the preferred method of attacking the enemy, I don't see the need for a CAS capability going away in the future. Especially in COIN environments.
 
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ohan_qwe

Junior Member
I don't understand why price will make A10 obsolete, it must be cheaper to use A10 in COIN missions than F35.

I think that no boots on the ground will be the new US motto for many missions in the future, wouldn't a armored airplane that can get close and identify the enemy be of great value. I don't know how much fuel an A10 has but if there are some fighters that can provide continuously support for allied militas then it must be quite annoying for the enemy.

As you all know iraq acquired some SU25 instead of some converted trainer to fight ISIS and there must be some reason behind that. For the oil countries in the middle east the money spent on a armored airplane is less costly than a shot down plane or the propaganda gain for ISIS.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
As time goes by... I should stop my self from breaking into song.
A10 was introduced into serve in 1977, there production run was 716 units built from 1972 to 1984 this makes the youngest unit 30 years old. those units have seen action across the globe. As they were never built for export and the production line is closed there is a finite number of spare parts available. the current A10 fleet mostly rebuilt C models is about 218. predictions show that fleet having a end of life in 2028 at which point the structure would either have to undergo a massive rebuild again to extend it's life farther. The Su25 is a different ball of wax. It's numbers were larger 1024 units, Costumer base was larger it having been widely exported and upgraded by Russia, Israel, and Georgia ( until the factory was bombed ) a number of operators having retired there birds and sold them to other nations meaning there is still a large number of active units.

The savings for F35 is intended to be a logistical one. If your a Air force operating a single air frame type you have a stream lined logistical track. The more aircraft types in inventory the more spare parts you have to keep the more specialists you have to have to repair this system or that that is unique to a specific type.
The USAF and most of our European allies want to streamline there logistics. You see this in common hull types where in the base airframe with modifications can serve a number of different jobs and Multirole types where in the stock aircraft is built to do any number of jobs. the Aim is flexibility.
You see the ultimate for of this in the USN where you have the FA18 Super Hornet it's common hulled EA18 Growler diminishing numbers of Hornets and Prowlers, The Common hulled Greyhound and Hawkeye. and again the common hulled Sea Hawks and Knight hawks.
 
janjak desalin

janjak desalin

Junior Member
ohan_qwe said:
Why is there no modern CAS that replace the Su25 and A10? A lot of the wars today is against terrorists/irregulars without advanced air defenses so shouldn't there be a market for a cheap CAS in the middle east and Africa. Is it because of that the CAS is too vulnerable against manpads or because that the drones are a better alternative.
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I'd suggest that, in the large-scale, high-tech battlefield context, one basis is the emphasis on fire and forget and laser designated ordinance packages delivered from multi-role aircraft.
In the COIN context, I'd suggest that it's a lack of foresight and an irrational attachment to the latest jet engine technology and over-sized caliber guns. As other commentors have posted, there are several prop platforms in service, but few of those are in the service of major air forces. France has a squadron of Tucanos that they didn't even deploy in the Mali COIN conflict.
I've scoured the internet searching for a platform that combines small size, medium speed, sufficient hard-points and payload, and sub-cannon caliber guns, and I found that the CASA C-101CC-02 fulfilled these requirements best. It is a turbofan aircraft, but speed is not emphasized.

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tc101_p_04_l.jpg

Interestingly, according to Wiki, Jordan has 16 of these, yet no mention has been made of offering a deal for Iraq to receive these in return for an upgrade for the JAF. I think these would have been even better suited to the missions against ISIL than the Su-25!
 
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