MLU for J11

Although the J-11, SU-27SK is still a formidable opponent for any opposing forces the first batches were purchased a number of years ago and frankly I seriously doubt that they could survive a high intensity combat mission in a high tech environment (BVR engagement, electronic warfare).

Is there any news on upgrade program for the comissioned J-11s? I know that the production of J-11 last was stopped but a retrofit program would be really logical.

In my view the critical components are the following: ECM suite, Nav system, R-27missiles, IR system (deteriorate over the years detection range goes down to less than 10 miles...). These features guarantee a handicap, which the improving training and the otherwise superior features cannot really compensate.

I think they should not spend too much on the retrofit but the above would be essential...

Clausewitz said:

Although the J-11, SU-27SK is still a formidable opponent for any opposing forces the first batches were purchased a number of years ago and frankly I seriously doubt that they could survive a high intensity combat mission in a high tech environment (BVR engagement, electronic warfare).

Is there any news on upgrade program for the comissioned J-11s? I know that the production of J-11 last was stopped but a retrofit program would be really logical.

In my view the critical components are the following: ECM suite, Nav system, R-27missiles, IR system (deteriorate over the years detection range goes down to less than 10 miles...). These features guarantee a handicap, which the improving training and the otherwise superior features cannot really compensate.

I think they should not spend too much on the retrofit but the above would be essential...

Click to expand...

i believe J-11A is already upgraded from su-27sk. It uses N-001VE radar, a more digitized cockpit, ability to fire R-77, upgraded IRST and probably a upgraded EW suite too. Also, China used more composite material in the construciton of J-11A.

I think he means actually refitting existing su-27s and j-11s with improved avionics and such, not building new ones with upgrades. Such upgrades are common in eastern block countries right now, ensuring their 80s era mig-29s stay effective until they have the money for NATO aircraft.

He makes a good point. China has around 36 standard combat su-27sk's that are getting a little old, along with some of the original j-11s.

Israel?
it has offered radar and systems upgrades before. since its also recently decided to resume military exports to china, why not sieze the oppurtunity to buy some israeli made MFDs and ECM pods ad fit them on to the su-27s? neither of them are particularly dangerous weapons(not even weapons), so the U.S would not block them. Such a deal could potentially save several million dollars.

Correct, I meant retrofitting the existing planes as you mentioned.

Although China spends considerably more than a decade ago but still the high command must consider the resources carefully. I had rather focus on developing new technologies then spending money on previous generation Sukhoys (do not misunderstood me - I adore those planes as in their time they were the maximum the Russians could achieve and they closed the gap at least in flight capabilities)...

It is rather interesting that you have mentioned Israel. In a way I think India can be much more efficient than China in the way they pick the best what the non US technology can provide and then integrating it - provides enough learning ground for their industry complex.

I think China will need to proceed, buying previous decade Russian hardware cannot really even close the gap...I think the GAP is not shrinking as much as even the Pentagon communicates (in order to gain more funds). China must focus on its own resources and develop certain asymmetric answers to the superior US technology.

That's my point, J-11 is already upgraded from su-27sk, so I don't know what kind of MLU you can do for them other than maybe using AL-31FM1 engines once the current engines are no longer working. As for su-27sk, they were saying on Chinese forums, that a lot of these old su-27sk are going to be shelved for a while and maybe used at a later date.

Also, the recent JF-17 cockpit pictures should be an indication that China needs no more Israeli help in this area. If you look at the way China has spent its resources, it's doing it in quite a careful manner. It hasn't bought anything from the Russians for a long time.

Shelved?!!! Those are perfectly useful planes. For what I heard, on the J-11A, it only has two LCD MFD's, as compared to the three thats standard on most other fighters, and the seven on the f-15k. I agree mostly with clausewitz, maybe except for the Indian part(does india sell weapons to china?).

What I feel is that these older j-11s and su-27s(The first ones purchased in 1992 and 94) should all recieve a new avionics package and ECM, very similar to the fc-1s. The South-West China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment has desinged defences for j-7e/gs, and the same can be done for the flankers. After being used for so many years, the radars and electro-optical sensors on the flankers probably dont work as well as they did originally. They must be replaced by new ones.

Rather than shelve perfectly good aircraft, regulate them to second line units. The planes will provide the units with valuable firepower, and train the pilots to operate fourth generation aircraft. The lowerflying hours of the units guarentees the airframes will not expire for at least another decade.

MIGleader said:

Shelved?!!! Those are perfectly useful planes. For what I heard, on the J-11A, it only has two LCD MFD's, as compared to the three thats standard on most other fighters, and the seven on the f-15k. I agree mostly with clausewitz, maybe except for the Indian part(does india sell weapons to china?).

What I feel is that these older j-11s and su-27s(The first ones purchased in 1992 and 94) should all recieve a new avionics package and ECM, very similar to the fc-1s. The South-West China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment has desinged defences for j-7e/gs, and the same can be done for the flankers. After being used for so many years, the radars and electro-optical sensors on the flankers probably dont work as well as they did originally. They must be replaced by new ones.

Rather than shelve perfectly good aircraft, regulate them to second line units. The planes will provide the units with valuable firepower, and train the pilots to operate fourth generation aircraft. The lowerflying hours of the units guarentees the airframes will not expire for at least another decade.

Click to expand...

The original su-27s got abused (overused) too much in the early years, because they were the only 4th generation fighters that China had. As for shelved, I simply mean that su-27 won't be flown quite as often, but they can still used once the appropriate time comes.

One problem I see is that all the avionics on J-11A are still using the Russian avionics. Also, China has bought a lot of R-27s and R-77s in the recent year because of its huge flanker population. We know that KLJ-3 doesn't have support for Russian AAMs. I'm not sure if putting the J-10 avionics on J-11A and Su-27 will still allow the usage of these Russian AAMs.

Well, I never mentioned actually putting a Chinese radar on the flanker,s simply replace the older radars with later russian models. Even if the kjl-3 replaced the N001E, the flankers could still fire the pl-9C, pl-12, and pl-11.

MIGleader said:

Well, I never mentioned actually putting a Chinese radar on the flanker,s simply replace the older radars with later russian models. Even if the kjl-3 replaced the N001E, the flankers could still fire the pl-9C, pl-12, and pl-11.

Click to expand...

I posted an article comparing the Russian su-27sm upgrade with the Chinese su-27s. It seems that the Russian copy of N-001V is far superior in detection range vs the Chinese copy of N-001VE and of course N-001E. Of course, the smart Russian business people tried to counter that by offering the Pero antenna upgrade. But, Chinese deemed it to be too costly.

I like what China is doing now with J-11B. It's picking and choosing what to buy from the Russians. If you noticed, it bought OLS-31 from the Russians recently. That probably means the domestic IRST isn't as good as the Russian ones. On a side note, someone on AFM pointed me to an article that said JF-17 has IRST. I was quite surprised by that. Seems like China is more advanced in this field than I previously gave it credit for. Also, it seems to be saying that China has more faith in its indigenous EW suite and radar and cockpit than the Russian ones.

Also, it was mentionned on the Chinese forums that J-10's EW suite seemed to gave it quite an advantage against the Russian ones in its BVR encounters against su-27/30. The good news is that it is now also on J-11B.

When you upgrade something first you better make sure it's still got enough airframe life to make the upgrades worth it.

Anyway, I would think that the old Su-27s might end up in some backwater base and regiment, and probably already is, that would be one of the regiments of the 6th Division, which is located in Lanzhou. Probably a mix of J-11s and old Su-27s as some speculate. The Su-27s may have originally came from the 2nd Division, but for a period there, they were still with the 2nd for a time, but that regiment in the 2nd Division may now have completely upgraded to J-11s and the older Sues moved to the overhaul and reserve. We're not talking of the UBKs here, which are still Russian made and is still found in "pure" J-11 regiments (no Russian made Su-27s.)

The earliest batch of Su-27s now reside in one of the regiments of the 19th Division in Jinan MR. They use to come from the 3rd Division and is the first batch of Su-27s that came to China. They appeared to have been overhauled and renumbered ever since. They appeared to still be in active service with the 19th Division alongside J-11s but I presume the 19th might shift entirely to J-11s and move the older Sues elsewhere like the 2nd Division.

The oldest Su-27UBKs should still be around in the active regiments because they are still so busy training nuggets. These have been overhauled and repainted, probably renumbered as well, so you can't track them via the pictures anymore, except for one or two clue signs.

As for the upgrades, a company called Technocomplex sent more than 100 upgrade kits that would enable the J-11s to use the R-77. They probably all went to the J-11s, but not the older Su-27s. The last batch of 28 UBKs which went to the 33rd but is now distributed, had the upgrade preinstalled.

The OLS-31E is probably going for the newest J-11s.

It is disappointing that the J-11s stuck to the L006 Beryoza RWR for so long, instead of the superior L015 Pastel RWR as used on the MKK. You can identify the Beryoza by the blade like extension you can see on the side of the engine tunnel near the intake. The MKKs do not have them, instead the Pastel is hidden inside the wing edge.

It would be nice to see the J-10's RWR on the J-11B, though my impression is that at least the earlier ones might still be using the Beryoza, which is tried and true but a bit outdated now.

We need to observe the newest J-11s more for the RWR. The J-10 style RWR would be like those blisters near the canopy like you see in the J-10, though these can be located anywhere in the plane. The Beryoza RWR would be those blades near the engine intake, whereas if the plane does not have those blades, or lack the J-10 style blisters anywhere, it may be the Pastel RWR that is being used.

The EW suite is also a disappointment. The Russians originally sold China the Gardenia pods instead of the phase array Sorbitsya, which is better and is used on their own RuAF Su-27S. Later the Russians did sell the much newer Omul pod with the MKKs, and I presume that the J-11s may have upgraded to the Omuls, or use a Chinese ECM that is similarly shaped into a compatible pod. I don't know if China ever bought Sorbitsya pods at a later time or date on a seperate contract from the original contract purchases, but it is often considered that China had them (all three pods, Gardenia, Sorbitsya, Omul). Since the pods all look physically the same, it's hard to tell who is who.

Sukhoi did offer the Su-27SKM upgrade for the Chinese planes, which is like an MLU and includes overhaul, for 5 million a plane. But China didn't buy it, and it surprised Sukhoi who thought it would made for Chinese requirements. The SKM was also meant for the J-11s not yet built.