corruption in PLA
- Thread starter kroko
- Start date
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
The pro China Party will be here Soon So I figure I might as well Leave them some Ammo.
The Problem with the PLA the Communist party of China as a whole there are no real checks and balances to keep the system from getting so incestuous and so directly linked to the money making. The system locks the Financial leadership too the political in the most direct manor, so policies put in place to protect or prevent corruption are put in place by those who are the corrupt. This can hinder as It would make sure contracts are awarded to those in the know.
Now to use a little of that Ammo.
:: But TE the Western system surely is just as Corrupt.::
Yes the West has it's problems with Corruption, Jessie Jackson Jr. just these last weeks is proof enough of that. But Well Millionaires and Billionaires may run for office Someone rarely becomes one well in office and When it happens That individual is going too have every tax form they ever filed gone over with a microscope.
Where as in The PRC people can become billionaires because they are in key positions and pass just the right legislation to place there family or personal company in just the right place too take advantage.
In the west even the hint of such would mean dealing with a Alphabet soup of agency's. In china they are those agents.
and since they control the media they control what gets reported.
::But TE how can awarding a Contact to a General's company cause issues with equipment? Surly they know what is needed better then some civilian?::
In the American Civil War A contract for Union Army Boots was given to a individual because he was a close friend to War Secretary Stanton. The boots fell apart after a single mile of marching. When asked why? "They were meant for the Cavalry."
Generals these days tend to be staff officers. They never really hit the field. More politician then combatant.
If a jet falls from the Sky it's a PR problem. If a tank explodes It's a impediment. As long as they keep the right programs on track and suppress the right issues. in a Army in Garrison Such issues might be heard about but are more embarrassment, trouble is like a ship in port a Army is not meant to always be on base. So it can cause trouble if the gear getting too the troops is the Chosen model not the needed model. In The Afgan occupation Russian troops often ditched there Boots for Chinese Running Shoes, and often made chest rigs or bought them black market because there web gear was poorly suited too there needs.
::Like you said TE That's a common problem? So it just means China shares the Same problems::
but not too the same level, Generals may become the CEO of a Contractor for a western arms maker but first he has too leave the service. Even then there is always someone watching just who close they get. the NCO Corp evaluates a lot kit too make sure it's not just a big heavy useless object. so in the end One way or another it's all about trying too keep the system honest, via the most simple and Direct method. If the product is crap don't Buy it. look for someone else's. Trouble is I am not sure the PLA could do the same because the State owned makers Dominate and allot of the same names interchange along both the Chain of Command the Contractor's Board of Directors as well as those who are supposed too keep watch.
Or as My one of may Favorite movie scenes puts it.
The Problem with the PLA the Communist party of China as a whole there are no real checks and balances to keep the system from getting so incestuous and so directly linked to the money making. The system locks the Financial leadership too the political in the most direct manor, so policies put in place to protect or prevent corruption are put in place by those who are the corrupt. This can hinder as It would make sure contracts are awarded to those in the know.
Now to use a little of that Ammo.
:: But TE the Western system surely is just as Corrupt.::
Yes the West has it's problems with Corruption, Jessie Jackson Jr. just these last weeks is proof enough of that. But Well Millionaires and Billionaires may run for office Someone rarely becomes one well in office and When it happens That individual is going too have every tax form they ever filed gone over with a microscope.
Where as in The PRC people can become billionaires because they are in key positions and pass just the right legislation to place there family or personal company in just the right place too take advantage.
In the west even the hint of such would mean dealing with a Alphabet soup of agency's. In china they are those agents.
and since they control the media they control what gets reported.
::But TE how can awarding a Contact to a General's company cause issues with equipment? Surly they know what is needed better then some civilian?::
In the American Civil War A contract for Union Army Boots was given to a individual because he was a close friend to War Secretary Stanton. The boots fell apart after a single mile of marching. When asked why? "They were meant for the Cavalry."
Generals these days tend to be staff officers. They never really hit the field. More politician then combatant.
If a jet falls from the Sky it's a PR problem. If a tank explodes It's a impediment. As long as they keep the right programs on track and suppress the right issues. in a Army in Garrison Such issues might be heard about but are more embarrassment, trouble is like a ship in port a Army is not meant to always be on base. So it can cause trouble if the gear getting too the troops is the Chosen model not the needed model. In The Afgan occupation Russian troops often ditched there Boots for Chinese Running Shoes, and often made chest rigs or bought them black market because there web gear was poorly suited too there needs.
::Like you said TE That's a common problem? So it just means China shares the Same problems::
but not too the same level, Generals may become the CEO of a Contractor for a western arms maker but first he has too leave the service. Even then there is always someone watching just who close they get. the NCO Corp evaluates a lot kit too make sure it's not just a big heavy useless object. so in the end One way or another it's all about trying too keep the system honest, via the most simple and Direct method. If the product is crap don't Buy it. look for someone else's. Trouble is I am not sure the PLA could do the same because the State owned makers Dominate and allot of the same names interchange along both the Chain of Command the Contractor's Board of Directors as well as those who are supposed too keep watch.
Or as My one of may Favorite movie scenes puts it.
Cassablanca:1942 said:
solarz
Brigadier
That just means in the West, money can buy power while in China, power can buy money. Why is the former better than the latter?
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Corruption is defined as someone abusing their position of trust and responsibility to use resources for personal gain rather than for the good of the country. I challenge anyone to take a look at all the pork barrel defence contracts or unnecessary and inefficient allocation of resources in the west and tell me there is no corruption there and that that is the best and most efficient use of resources.
The only reason the west is so 'clean' is less to do with a fundamental cultural difference as westerns like to think, and more because corruption, especially at the higher levels, have effectively been legalised and institutionalised.
In a way, China and the West are like opposites. In China, corruption is rife in the lower and medium levels, but the higher up get in the food chain, the less corruption there is. It is kinda like natural selection, whereby over the course of a career, those who are corrupt eventually slip up or fall out with someone and gets brought down by corruption charges, so the more ambitious an official and the higher they climb, the cleaner they need to be, since you inevitably make enemies as you climb the steps of power, and a corruption charge would be an easy way for your enemies to take you down.
In the west, the lower and medium levels of government are very clean, but the higher you get, the worse the corruption, since the higher the office, the more money a political needs to raise to win elections, and those campaign contributions are never free. Unless you only plan to serve a single term, you need to repay your benefactors or else no one will give you a penny for your next campaign. And since every politician is in the same boat, no one in power is ever going to raise a stink over the practice.
Perhaps in a related way, the more senior the leaders in the west, the more prevalence there is for people to be personally corrupt, take the UK's MP's expenses scandals or past scandals with ministers and MPs taking pointless overseas trips at great expense to the taxpayer to exotic holiday destinations. It's almost like after a career or clean living, many officials in the west sees a little personal gain at the taxpayers' expense as a rightful perk of seniority.
In summary, there is corruption everywhere, but I leave it each of you to decide which is worse - to have a load of corrupt lower and mid level governments officials but have your top leaders clean and straight, or have most of your lower and mid level government officials squeaky clean but all your top officials bought and paid for by wealthy interest groups and companies.
The only reason the west is so 'clean' is less to do with a fundamental cultural difference as westerns like to think, and more because corruption, especially at the higher levels, have effectively been legalised and institutionalised.
In a way, China and the West are like opposites. In China, corruption is rife in the lower and medium levels, but the higher up get in the food chain, the less corruption there is. It is kinda like natural selection, whereby over the course of a career, those who are corrupt eventually slip up or fall out with someone and gets brought down by corruption charges, so the more ambitious an official and the higher they climb, the cleaner they need to be, since you inevitably make enemies as you climb the steps of power, and a corruption charge would be an easy way for your enemies to take you down.
In the west, the lower and medium levels of government are very clean, but the higher you get, the worse the corruption, since the higher the office, the more money a political needs to raise to win elections, and those campaign contributions are never free. Unless you only plan to serve a single term, you need to repay your benefactors or else no one will give you a penny for your next campaign. And since every politician is in the same boat, no one in power is ever going to raise a stink over the practice.
Perhaps in a related way, the more senior the leaders in the west, the more prevalence there is for people to be personally corrupt, take the UK's MP's expenses scandals or past scandals with ministers and MPs taking pointless overseas trips at great expense to the taxpayer to exotic holiday destinations. It's almost like after a career or clean living, many officials in the west sees a little personal gain at the taxpayers' expense as a rightful perk of seniority.
In summary, there is corruption everywhere, but I leave it each of you to decide which is worse - to have a load of corrupt lower and mid level governments officials but have your top leaders clean and straight, or have most of your lower and mid level government officials squeaky clean but all your top officials bought and paid for by wealthy interest groups and companies.
"Power tends to corrupt, and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely" (John Emerich Edward Dalberg, 1st Barion Acton, 1834-1902) - applies even today in all countries.
solarz
Brigadier
Power tends to corrupt: agreed.
Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely: disproven by history. Some of the most revered emperors in Chinese history: Han Wudi, Li Shiming, Zhu Yuanzhang, Kang Xi and Qian Long ruled with absolute power. Some of the darkest periods of Chinese history is when imperial power is divided between rival factions.
The west has massive corruption which is why the west in general is in decline.
Western politicians can be bribed by wealthy individuals and corporations to carry out their agenda. These corporations and wealthy individuals give money to politicians so that they can win the election. Once the election is won, that politician works for the best interests of the people that gave him money to win the election. When this happens the politician is more worried about carrying out the agenda of the corporations so that he can get reelected. He is thus not willing to work for the best interests of the country but for the best interest of millionaires, billionaires and corporations.
Some countries call this lobbying, but 'lobbying' is a euphemism for bribery. Lobbying is legal in many western countries, which means its LEGALISED bribery.
Unless the west can sort out this bribery problem, western politicians will continue to work for the best interests of corporations and western economies and its people will continue to suffer. The actions of corporations are not usually in the best interest of the country as their primary goal is profit maximisation.
Trying to defend lobbying is the same as trying to defend bribery.
China has a big corruption problem, but so does the west. To say corruption only occurs in non-western countries is extremely silly. Corruption is part of every country.
Western politicians can be bribed by wealthy individuals and corporations to carry out their agenda. These corporations and wealthy individuals give money to politicians so that they can win the election. Once the election is won, that politician works for the best interests of the people that gave him money to win the election. When this happens the politician is more worried about carrying out the agenda of the corporations so that he can get reelected. He is thus not willing to work for the best interests of the country but for the best interest of millionaires, billionaires and corporations.
Some countries call this lobbying, but 'lobbying' is a euphemism for bribery. Lobbying is legal in many western countries, which means its LEGALISED bribery.
Unless the west can sort out this bribery problem, western politicians will continue to work for the best interests of corporations and western economies and its people will continue to suffer. The actions of corporations are not usually in the best interest of the country as their primary goal is profit maximisation.
Trying to defend lobbying is the same as trying to defend bribery.
China has a big corruption problem, but so does the west. To say corruption only occurs in non-western countries is extremely silly. Corruption is part of every country.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I love how "outsiders" seem to think they can dictate how Chinese are suppose to react. Yeah there's corruption in China so what are you expecting? Outsider think if Chinese don't start a revolt against the communist government because of what they personally say, they must be in league with communism. The only reason why outsiders talk about corruption in China is to declare the Chinese government illegimate therefore it's their right to change the government as they see fit. And I'm not just talking about some reputable outsider crticizing China. I was in another forum and someone brought up corruption in China like it was new news and was upset that the Chinese members didn't seem follow like a lemming to an expected reaction. Like Chinese members in a forum admitting to him was going to do something about corruption in China? The arrogance... Maybe it's like solving addiction problems and the first step is to admit it them. Like that will end corruption in China. So basically what he was expecting was for the Chinese members to admit China was corrupt to legitmize his own personal beliefs. It's the Gordan Chang token effect. Just get only one Chinese to agree with what they think so it doesn't look racist and that makes them right.
The media is arrogant because this is just another attempt to start some Arab Spring type revolution in China by trying to sour the Chinese to their own government. I read an article that said China can't take criticism and I posted a comment about the extreme negative reaction to Jackie Chan calling the US the most corrupt country in the world because of what happened in the 2008 financial crisis. I got just as much an extreme negative reaction to pointing that out. And we're suppose to believe a China under their supervision and approval wouldn't be corrupt?
The media is arrogant because this is just another attempt to start some Arab Spring type revolution in China by trying to sour the Chinese to their own government. I read an article that said China can't take criticism and I posted a comment about the extreme negative reaction to Jackie Chan calling the US the most corrupt country in the world because of what happened in the 2008 financial crisis. I got just as much an extreme negative reaction to pointing that out. And we're suppose to believe a China under their supervision and approval wouldn't be corrupt?
World history has proven that the corrupt "Imperial Powers" have fallen - Roman etc. etc. Did'nt the Chinese emperors fall? Were'nt they autocratic, despotic etc? Were they liked by the ordinary Chinese people? Pride will generally lead to a downfall whether leaders or countries (Western or Asian).
On the plus side Xi appears to take the problem quite seriously. Given the steep drop in Maotai and Wuliangye stocks I do think that positive change is coming.