Chinese Civil War 1949

Hello,

I have a GREAT INTEREST in the China Civil War 1949, partly because my father was at the wheel of HMS Amethyst 20th April 1949.

I thought that every foreigner was given enough time to avoid conflict with the PLA, (Peoples Liberation Army). There was an 8 Point Peace Plan, why did it not work?

1. The punishment of war criminals
2. Abolition of the constitution
3. Abolition of the Nationalist legal system
4. A democratic reorganisation of the Nationalist troops
5. Confiscation of the Bureaucratic Capital
6. Reform of the land system
7. The abolition of Treasonous Treaties
8. A new Consultative Conference, from which ' reactionary elements' would be barred, to establish a democratic coalition government which would take over all authority from the 'Kuomintang reactionary government'

This plan was not accepted by the NLA, it is one of the reasons Chaing kai-shek fled to Formosa today Taiwan. I would like to know more from the Chinese point of view and I want to understand why the PLA was so against the British. I do have my own theory, but I would like to hear from a Chinese perspective.

Is there any Chinese film/photo archive I can look into as I have hardly anything at all. I would appreciate any feedback especially information as to film or photo footage from this time.

I have many questions and I have to start somewhere, I hope I do not offend anyone as I am hoping to learn something very special about this sensitive time.

Thank you
Queue :china:

No, I do not believe that the PLA has anything against the British, the PLA fired on HMS Amethyst because she entered Chinese territorial water with out the permission from the communists, so the shooting is pretty much a political statement, showing the world that the Communists do not recognise the legitimacy of the nationalist government and the treasonous treaties it has signed with foreign powers, and that only the communists are willing to defend China's sovereignty.

Queue said:

Hello,

I have a GREAT INTEREST in the China Civil War 1949, partly because my father was at the wheel of HMS Amethyst 20th April 1949.

I thought that every foreigner was given enough time to avoid conflict with the PLA, (Peoples Liberation Army). There was an 8 Point Peace Plan, why did it not work?

Eight Point Peace Plan​

1. The punishment of war criminals
2. Abolition of the constitution
3. Abolition of the Nationalist legal system
4. A democratic reorganisation of the Nationalist troops
5. Confiscation of the Bureaucratic Capital
6. Reform of the land system
7. The abolition of Treasonous Treaties
8. A new Consultative Conference, from which ' reactionary elements' would be barred, to establish a democratic coalition government which would take over all authority from the 'Kuomintang reactionary government'

This plan was not accepted by the NLA, it is one of the reasons Chaing kai-shek fled to Formosa today Taiwan. I would like to know more from the Chinese point of view and I want to understand why the PLA was so against the British. I do have my own theory, but I would like to hear from a Chinese perspective.

Is there any Chinese film/photo archive I can look into as I have hardly anything at all. I would appreciate any feedback especially information as to film or photo footage from this time.

I have many questions and I have to start somewhere, I hope I do not offend anyone as I am hoping to learn something very special about this sensitive time.

Thank you
Queue :china:

Click to expand...

The peace plan was not accepted by NLA simply because in fact there's an "NLA" in each point (literally or not). Like "The punishment of NLA war criminals", "Abolition of the NLA constitution". That peace plan is actually a call for unconditional surrender. Besides, it's not civil war 1949, but civil war 1946-1949.

For the HMS Amethyst event, it was simply because the ship cruising on Yang Tze river was illegal. The right for British warships to cruiser on Yang Tze river terminated in 1943 after a new treaty between China and Britain, as a result of the alliance between China and Britain during the WWII.

Re: Chinese Civil War 1946-1949

The Treaty of Nanking (Treaty of Nanjing) is the unequal treaty which marked the end of the First Opium War between the British and Qing Empires in 1839-42.

The fundamental purpose of the treaty was to change the framework of foreign trade which had been in force since 1760. The treaty abolished the monopoly of the Thirteen Factories on foreign trade (Article V) in Canton and instead five ports were opened for trade, Canton, Amoy, Foochow, Ningpo and Shanghai, where Britain's were to be allowed to trade with anyone they wished. Britain also gained the right to send consuls to the treaty ports, which were given the right to communicate directly with local Chinese officials. The treaty was the first in a series of treaties, often referred to as "Unequal Treaties", which China concluded with Western nations in the 19th century. The treaty stipulated that trade in the treaty ports should be subject to fixed tariffs, which were to be agreed upon between the British and the Qing governments

Although actually in China Tsingtao (Qingdao today) was leased to Germany as a colony by the Chinese government in the wake of the murder of two German missionaries in the late 19th century. In order to appease the German government following the two deaths China granted Germany a 99-year lease on the colony in 1898. This I found to be incredible information!

US Secretary of State John Hay had issued the Open Door Notes of September-November 1899, followed by a diplomatic circular in July 1900, asking that all of the major world powers with vested interests in China declare formally that they would maintain an ‘open door’ to allow all nations equal rights and equal access to the treaty ports within their spheres of influence in China. Fearing that the European powers and Japan were preparing to carve China up into colonies, Hay also added provisions that Chinese territorial and administrative integrity should be maintained.

'Twenty-One Demands' Made by Japan to China, 18 January 1915. Very strong language by the Japanese.

The Washington Naval Treaty, also known as the Five-Power Treaty, I just wanted to inform you there was also a Four-Power Treaty. limited the naval armaments of its five signatories: the United States, the British Empire, the Empire of Japan, the French Third Republic, and the Kingdom of Italy. China ended up with well over 25 nationalities in China at the time of 1949, probably many more.

The Nine-Power Treaty was a treaty affirming the sovereignty and territorial integrity of China as per the "Open Door Policy" to all foreign trade but violated by Japan during its invasion of Manchuria in 1931. World War II effectively nullified the Nine-Power Treaty.
What I find interesting is that With the Japanese seizure (1931) of Manchuria and the creation of Manchukuo, however, the Open Door principle formally ceased to exist.

After World War II, China's position as a sovereign state was recognized, and all special concessions and unequal treaties were abolished. However, with the rise to power of the Communist Party of China, the Open Door Policy was rejected until 1978 when Deng Xiaoping committed China to adopting policies which promote foreign trade and economic investment. So yes it seems you are part right HMS Amethyst was illegally as with ALL foreign ships in Chinese waters.

I would like to know more about the new treaty between China and Britain at this time of April 20th 1949! Yhis was close to the end of the Civil War, What was this New Treaty called? If the Open Door policy was rejected until 1978 was it not confusing to the British and ALL foreign countries with no clear outcome as to the Civil War 1946-1949. Most of the West did pour money into a failing NLA, it did seem to me irresponsible of the Western world and also a break down in talks between China. As I have mentioned before I am trying to understand what was most probably a very confusing time!

So what lessons did we learn? China has done very well after the Cultural Revolution, it must of been a very sad time indeed! but today is a New Day, and hopefully a happy day. Soon you will have the 2008 Olympics of which I am looking forward to very much.

:china:

Re: Chinese Civil War 1946-1949

Queue said:

.....
I would like to know more about the new treaty between China and Britain at this time of April 20th 1949! Yhis was close to the end of the Civil War, What was this New Treaty called? If the Open Door policy was rejected until 1978 was it not confusing to the British and ALL foreign countries with no clear outcome as to the Civil War 1946-1949. Most of the West did pour money into a failing NLA, it did seem to me irresponsible of the Western world and also a break down in talks between China. As I have mentioned before I am trying to understand what was most probably a very confusing time!
......

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Just my 2 cents. No idea what the 1949 treaty with UK was called but I believe the result was UK became the first western nation to recognize the Communist government. The motivation being UK wanted to avoid HK being taken back so they gave the Communist the carrot of diplomatic recognition while China saw the benefit of having HK as their sole gateway to the world.

Please post my comments, they are so important as to the future of the world. We need to act as a "Collective Consciousness" people not afraid to speak out if our government makes mistakes!!
Queue

Well technically the PRC was not even recognized by the British Consulate until 6th of Jan 1950. During this period of turbulence and stagnation during this the capital was moved from Nanjing to Beijing (still Peking to you westerners then!) In this mix the Amethyst issue comes about in a time of few if any formal diplomatic relations with the UK, I mean sure there were a skeleton crew holed up in the Beijing embassy and surrounding major cities but it meant practically nothing. Overshadowing this was the incursion of the Korean War and the mission to China was reduced further to the point where only three men held out in Shanghai. In special session His Majesties Chronological Negotiations with Foreign Powers has it stated (can't put exact date on this and didn't want to expend the extra time) that a quick document called simply the Treaty of Shanghai [and subsequent Ports and Municipalities] kept the tenuous hold between the two nations (even with Britain fighting in the UN delegate to South Korea) I believe until 1955 or so... This was a basic 'don't shoot us and stay in Commonwealth waters and we won't shoot you' with maybe some addendum's allowing for extended trade in the coming years.

I don't know any treaty between Britain and China in 1949. What I know is there's a treaty in 1943 called 《关于取消英国在华治外法权及其有关特权条约》. I translate it as "Treaty for the cancellation of Britain's extra-territoriality and related privileges in China". In this treaty, Britain abandoned all the privileges she got from China in all the treaties before. Including the right of warship cruising in Chinese territorial water, and other so called equal rights. There is a similar treaty between China and US in 1943 too.

In 1946, China and US signed another treaty <中美友好通商航海条约>, I translate it as "China-US friendly trade and navigation treaty". This is a very long treaty. In summery, according to this treaty, China and US will fully open to each other. People can travel in the other country freely, trade freely, resident freely, warships can cruise in the other country's territorial water freely, etc. But because China barely had transport ability over the oceans nor any competitive products or any means to support large business in a huge and faraway country, so this treaty was considered to benefit US alone, not both countries. Therefore the Chinese Communist Party rejected this treaty. But, there was nothing similar between China and Britain.