Chinese apdsfs round

challenge

Banned Idiot
according to jim warford, kinetic round for type-99 is based on israel M-711 round.
M-711 round is joint israel-romania project design to fire from existing russian 125mm smooth borne tank.
penetration 600mm at 2km down range.
but the muzzle energy for Type-99 125mm tank gun has 45% increase over the original 2A46M this mean it higher armour penetration ,likely 650mm .
aside from tungsten round, China also marketing 100mm ,105mm and 125mm DU round
 

HKSDU

Junior Member
China Type II round can only do with about 550, and its Type IIM (w/ Israel assistance) is improved to 600. Though it comes down to the gun being fired from. I though 45% increase would been 45% increase of the energy ~950, which would put it to being able to defeat most modern MBT in service through KE

To put into perspective:
M1 ~660-680
M1A2 ~960
Leopard 2 ~940
Challenger 2 ~960
Type 99 ~800?
 
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LostWraith

New Member
There's no way the Abrams and the Challenger 2 can out penetrate a Leo 2. I don't know where you got those numbers from, but the Leo 2A6 uses an L55 gun of the same calibre against the L44 version installed on an Abrams, and it's significantly more powerful. The Challenger 2 uses a rifled gun to accomodate the HESH rounds they fire, but cannot achieve the same penetration and the British are trying to upgrade the Challenger 2 to the same L55 gun that the Leo 2 has.
 
I think those figures might be for frontal protection, not penetrative power.

I got this fact online:
Chobham is a composite armor formed by spacing multiple layers of various alloys of steel, ceramics, plastic composites, and kevlar, giving an estimated maximum (frontal turret) 1,320–1,620 millimetres (52–64 in) of RHAe versus HEAT (and other chemical energy rounds) and 940–960 mm (37–38 in) versus kinetic energy penetrators.

Which matches up with the figures above.
 

LostWraith

New Member
If those numbers are supposed to be armor values, then the Type 99 has a 1000-1200mm RHS frontal defense.

The Leopard 2 armor is also much better against KE rounds than the Chobam armor variants, which hold better against most HEAT rounds.
 

williamhou

Junior Member
In an interview a high-ranking officer of a PLA armoured division admitted a type 96 would have few chance in beating the frontal armour of M1 and Leopard 2, but have a good chance in beating their rear armour. Are type 96 and type 99 using the same 125mm smoothbore gun?
 

LostWraith

New Member
In an interview a high-ranking officer of a PLA armoured division admitted a type 96 would have few chance in beating the frontal armour of M1 and Leopard 2, but have a good chance in beating their rear armour. Are type 96 and type 99 using the same 125mm smoothbore gun?
Not quite, the Type 96 uses the 48:1 length ratio 125mm gun, while the Type 99 uses one with a 51:1 length ratio.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
HKSDU: 45% increase of energy is at muzzle (about 20% increase in velocity). Typically penetration is measured at 2 km. Since friction in fluid is proportional to velocity squared (the simplest model anyway), energy at 2km will increase by much less than 45%. The actual number will depend on a lot of factors and hence why leaking the 45% inc in muzzle energy isn't very informative (and so it was allowed...). You can try looking up the typical drag coefficient of APFSDS rounds and doing a rough calculation.

On the flip side, it means that at muzzle, penetration may be more than 1.45*600, since the 600 mm figure is at 2km.
 

HKSDU

Junior Member
If those numbers are supposed to be armor values, then the Type 99 has a 1000-1200mm RHS frontal defense.

The Leopard 2 armor is also much better against KE rounds than the Chobam armor variants, which hold better against most HEAT rounds.

The figures I gave were for the KE required to penetrate turret of the tank, not the rounds penetration level, or frontal arc. KE is different to your CE rounds, cause KE is pure impact energy, no heat. Your 1000-1200 front arc defence isnt talking about KE penetration level, its talking about equivalent thickness of steel armour. Its a major difference. For the Type 99 to have 1000-1200 KE resistant level its gonna place the tank over to 60t region not your mid-high 50t.

HKSDU: 45% increase of energy is at muzzle (about 20% increase in velocity). Typically penetration is measured at 2 km. Since friction in fluid is proportional to velocity squared (the simplest model anyway), energy at 2km will increase by much less than 45%. The actual number will depend on a lot of factors and hence why leaking the 45% inc in muzzle energy isn't very informative (and so it was allowed...). You can try looking up the typical drag coefficient of APFSDS rounds and doing a rough calculation.

On the flip side, it means that at muzzle, penetration may be more than 1.45*600, since the 600 mm figure is at 2km.

Thanx, bit rusty on my physics since i haven't used it in a while, forgot about energy conversion. But aren't the fundamentals of KE=0.5*m*v^2, now the round should contain simular mass give or take, now depending on round initial exit speed from the gun, time flight taken, drag coefficient (like you said) we can calculate how much KE is impacted. All Im missing is the exit speed of the round cause I need to know how tight Chinese 125mm smoothbourne is compared to the Russian one initially tested on.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
during the desert storm, US tankers claim that iraqi T-72 tank has effective range of 1900meter,while effective range of 120mm L-44 is twice that 2A46M
this is due to 120mm higher chamber pressure than 125mm gun (11 mg.joules vs. 9 mg.joules)
but according to steven zaloga,even at 9 meg.joules the 2a46M is still more powerful that L-7 105mm rifle gun and L-11 120mm (chieftain/challenger-1) yet both gun manage to destroyed tank target beyond 2000 meter- and even 5000 meter!
 
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