China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: Y-20 Heavy Transport Aircraft

How fat and cute.

271531212dfca383d092bb7.jpg

Heh doesnt' look like those skinny wings could support that massive fuselage... But we'll probably see a similar configuration when it comes out, hopefully sometime this year.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Type 081 LHD

AC313 is doing ok.
revamped Z-8/ Super Frelon platform with 3 PT6B engines. If that program goes well it should be the standard Marine/PLAN heavy helo for the fore-seenable future.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: Type 081 LHD

AC313 is doing ok.
revamped Z-8/ Super Frelon platform with 3 PT6B engines. If that program goes well it should be the standard Marine/PLAN heavy helo for the fore-seenable future.

I think that would be more of a medium/heavy helo rather than a true heavy like the sea stallion... And even then upgraded Z-8 and AC313 are using foreign engines :(
Hopefully that Mi-26 development with Russia will go smoothly so they have something in that class before 2020.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Type 081 LHD

I agree China is weak in helicopters. Many of their only modern helicopters are copies of what they got from the US and Europe in the 1980s before the arms embargo. Today China buys Boeing and Airbus airliners, why can't China buy Eurocopter and Bell helicopters like the NH90 and EH101 then reverse engineer them? The EH101 has a civilian variant. So does the Eurocopter Super Puma. The embargo allows civilian exports, that is how China and Eurocopter are jointly developing a heavy lift helicopter.

China buys boeing and airbus airliners for their airlines. The PLA does not use them.

It is a similar case with civilian helos. Sure, you can modify them, paint them green/grey/whatever and use that for the military, but that would be a violation of the terms of sales, which would forbid military applications.

Not only can the makers take China to the WTO and almost certainly get a ruling demanding China to stop, the governments of the helo makers can also order them to stop supplying new helos and spare parts to China if China does not stop using helos they bought on the civilian market for the military.

Frankly, it would be a pretty silly thing to do and will not only open the door for all sorts of punitive measures which will hurt the chinese civilian operators of helos made by those foreign companies, but also make those military helos extremely vulnerable to foreign parts embargo. And that is something the PLA is willing to go to almost any lengths to avoid facing.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
I think that would be more of a medium/heavy helo rather than a true heavy like the sea stallion... And even then upgraded Z-8 and AC313 are using foreign engines :(
Hopefully that Mi-26 development with Russia will go smoothly so they have something in that class before 2020.

Ok...

China buys boeing and airbus airliners for their airlines. The PLA does not use them.

It is a similar case with civilian helos. Sure, you can modify them, paint them green/grey/whatever and use that for the military, but that would be a violation of the terms of sales, which would forbid military applications.

Not only can the makers take China to the WTO and almost certainly get a ruling demanding China to stop, the governments of the helo makers can also order them to stop supplying new helos and spare parts to China if China does not stop using helos they bought on the civilian market for the military.

Frankly, it would be a pretty silly thing to do and will not only open the door for all sorts of punitive measures which will hurt the chinese civilian operators of helos made by those foreign companies, but also make those military helos extremely vulnerable to foreign parts embargo. And that is something the PLA is willing to go to almost any lengths to avoid facing.

34 Division's VIP flight is full of B737s.

They did try to RE S-70 believe it or not.

But I dont think they were that successful. the whole thing was dropped and concentrated on Z-8 and Follow ons. where Z-8 they had a limited amount of tech transfers. UH-60/S-70 would have been much costiler to RE from scratch
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Type 081 LHD

I'm surprised China never reverse engineered all those Blackhawks it received from the US pre-embargo. They would have been perfect for an LHD.

The rumor is that the PLA thought about reverse engineering the black hawk, but then decided it was over-engineered and over-price, thus not suitable to be reverse engineered at the time.

This was in the late 80s, early 90s, so that position may have changed as China's technological and industrial base has grown with its economy.

Some of those black hawks that the PLA bought are certainly still in operation, which will probably mean that there has been some level of RE, if only to allow replacement of common parts.

There was a case a few yours back about some guy getting sent to prison in the US for trying to export restricted parts and components to China, and one of the items he tried to ship over was black hawk engines. So maybe that is how the PLA managed to keep the black hawks flying this long.

But I think the main bottleneck China has faced with its helos is the same as its jet fighters - engines.

The outside shape of a helo is hardly cutting-edge stuff, and even if you designed it badly, the things don't fly anywhere near fast enough for that to be a serious problem. If China can crack the engine issue, making never designs become a piece of cake in comparison.

Since helo engines are quite similar to jet engines in that the hardest part in their design and manufacture is not the layout of the engine itself, but the materials science needed to make the various parts strong and heat-resistant enough to allow the design to work.

With China having seemingly at last managed to master a relatively modern and capable turbofan jet engine, hopefully the material science break-throughs make in the WS10 programme would be able to feed into helo engine design and allow the Chinese to finally build decent helo engines, and once that happens, China's helo problems should be largely solved.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Type 081 LHD

14 Division's VIP flight is full of B737s.

I think there is a difference between flying VIPs to using the planes for frontline military service, as would be the case with the PLA using militarized US and European helos they bought on the civilian market.

It would be like if they converted some Boeings or Airbuses into tankers or AWACS. Would the PLAAF prefer them to the Russian planes they currently are limited to? Of course. Would the Americans and Europeans have objections to the PLA using their planes like that? You can bet your ass they will. And all of the consequences I listed before and more will happen if the PLA started using Boeings and Airbuses as tankers and AWACS, which is one of the reasons why they are putting a lot of effort in the indigenous Chinese airline programmes.

They did try to RE S-70 believe it or not.

But I dont think they were that successful. the whole thing was dropped and concentrated on Z-8 and Follow ons. where Z-8 they had a limited amount of tech transfers. UH-60/S-70 would have been much costiler to RE from scratch

Yes, I am aware of that.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Type 081 LHD

I think there is a difference between flying VIPs to using the planes for frontline military service, as would be the case with the PLA using militarized US and European helos they bought on the civilian market.

It would be like if they converted some Boeings or Airbuses into tankers or AWACS. Would the PLAAF prefer them to the Russian planes they currently are limited to? Of course. Would the Americans and Europeans have objections to the PLA using their planes like that? You can bet your ass they will. And all of the consequences I listed before and more will happen if the PLA started using Boeings and Airbuses as tankers and AWACS, which is one of the reasons why they are putting a lot of effort in the indigenous Chinese airline programmes.


.

There is a Command And Control Variant of 737 Flying with 34th Division too.
and for Elint they had Tu-154Ms flying for a while.
Lear-35 with SAR equipment?
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
What ever happened to the Y9 project, it was meant to be the most advanced cargo plane project in China, to challenge capability of the C130J

With China having seemingly at last managed to master a relatively modern and capable turbofan jet engine, hopefully the material science break-throughs make in the WS10 programme would be able to feed into helo engine design and allow the Chinese to finally build decent helo engines, and once that happens, China's helo problems should be largely solved.

they have been saying that China has solved engine issues 5 years ago but still AC313 uses foreign engine, J10B still uses AL31, ARJ21 uses foreign engine and even Chinas new C919 civilian aircraft is going to use foreign engines

the engine seems to be Chinas achilles heel big time, even although they have thrown all resources at this problem for last 10 years

China must master engine technology
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
What ever happened to the Y9 project, it was meant to be the most advanced cargo plane project in China, to challenge capability of the C130J



they have been saying that China has solved engine issues 5 years ago but still AC313 uses foreign engine, J10B still uses AL31, ARJ21 uses foreign engine and even Chinas new C919 civilian aircraft is going to use foreign engines

the engine seems to be Chinas achilles heel big time, even although they have thrown all resources at this problem for last 10 years

China must master engine technology

But J11B use WS10 A and we see at least 2 squadron of J 11B in operation now.More is being churned out as testified by photo on internet. So you are completely wrong to say China hasn't mastered the Jet engine technology yet

AC 313 supposed to be civilian export version in order to get FAA certification it is easier to use foreign technology. Not to mention prospective client preference for western jet. The same with ARJ 21

J10B is single engine prototype model. So they want to be conservative and choose to use more mature technolgy. But we do know they have J10 flying with WS 10A and JF 17 with WS 13. Both version are still in testing stage

In order to get production certification you need large number of engine flying. You cannot get reliablility statistic with small number of sample.

It is only last year that they iron out all the production bug
 
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