Beiyang fleet

not sure if this has been posted before, but I thought it warrants a little discussion. The Beiyang fleet, aka North Sea fleet, was China's first attempt at a modern navy I guess.
Unfortunately, it got annihlated against the Japanese in the sino-japan war of 1895. The most striking part of the fleet is the Dingyuan flag ship.

When it was first constructed, it was one of the most powerful ships in the world. To appreciate its capability, one only has to consider that PLAN to this day, still does not have an indigenous DDG that matches the displacement of Dingyuan. (there was also a second battleship of the same weight class as dingyuan in north sea fleet) Of course, as a result of the typical incompetence and corruption of the Qing government, the fleet and the flag ship really got squandered. If properly trained and defended, they probably would've given the Japanese navy some real problems. Of course, that did not happen.

To appreciate its capability, one only has to consider that PLAN to this day, still does not have an indigenous DDG that matches the displacement of Dingyuan.

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Well, the entire Beiyang fleet was built by Germans and British shipyards. At least nowadays, most of the PLAN is Chinese-built, albeit Russian-armed to a large degree. Most of this fleet was destroyed during the Battle of the Yalu. The Chinese navy at this time was actually one of the most advanced of the time in terms of weaponry and equipment. However, in terms of training, naval thinking, doctrine, and leadership, the navy was no better than the one that faced the Royal Navy during the Opium War. Also, Cixi used funds for the navy to build palaces. As a result, the Chinese ships had to fire sawdust shells and stones. Also, the Chinese used flammable paint on their ships.

I think the wiki entry for Beiyang fleet is a bit lacking. I'll see if I can add more to it.

As for the flagship... see this entry:


Ting Yuen opened fire on the Japanese when the range between the vessels was about 6000 yards (5,500m). This turned out to be a disastrous (and unnecessary) salvo from the Chinese flagship. When the German Navy took Ting Yuen out for gun trials in 1883 (Ting Yuen had been built in Germany) they noted that the main armament should not be fired on an ahead bearing. Firing on an ahead bearing resulted in the demolishing of the flying bridge, and Admiral Ting Ju ch'ang became a casualty of the battle from the opening shot of his own vessel, along with a number of officers also present on the bridge.

=_= picture this instruction manual... "do not fire main guns in ahead bearing, warning: may destroy the ship's flying bridge".

Here's a nice color drawing of the ship:

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Well, the entire Beiyang fleet was built by Germans and British shipyards. At least nowadays, most of the PLAN is Chinese-built, albeit Russian-armed to a large degree. Most of this fleet was destroyed during the Battle of the Yalu. The Chinese navy at this time was actually one of the most advanced of the time in terms of weaponry and equipment. However, in terms of training, naval thinking, doctrine, and leadership, the navy was no better than the one that faced the Royal Navy during the Opium War. Also, Cixi used funds for the navy to build palaces. As a result, the Chinese ships had to fire sawdust shells and stones. Also, the Chinese used flammable paint on their ships.

Click to expand...

Are you high or something? The crew of Beiyang fleet were exemplary by all standards. Not quite as good as the best of European navies but more than good enough to hold their own. During Jiawu, they actually achieved a 5% higher hit rate than the Japs.

Furthermore, the high level commanders, with the exclusion of Ding Ruchang (whose outdated thinking dragged the fleet down) was trained in England BY the Royal Navy. So it's a joke to say they were no better than the sailors during the Opium War, which by the way, did not involve significant naval tactics on the part of the Qing any way.

Incompetence (except perhaps on the part of Ding) has nothing to do with why China lost that war. It's pretty hard to win when your shells are filled with sawdust instead of explosives...

adeptitus said:

I think the wiki entry for Beiyang fleet is a bit lacking. I'll see if I can add more to it.

As for the flagship... see this entry:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Ting Yuen opened fire on the Japanese when the range between the vessels was about 6000 yards (5,500m). This turned out to be a disastrous (and unnecessary) salvo from the Chinese flagship. When the German Navy took Ting Yuen out for gun trials in 1883 (Ting Yuen had been built in Germany) they noted that the main armament should not be fired on an ahead bearing. Firing on an ahead bearing resulted in the demolishing of the flying bridge, and Admiral Ting Ju ch'ang became a casualty of the battle from the opening shot of his own vessel, along with a number of officers also present on the bridge.

=_= picture this instruction manual... "do not fire main guns in ahead bearing, warning: may destroy the ship's flying bridge".

Here's a nice color drawing of the ship:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

There is no evidence that the Dingyuan destroyed its own bridge.

mindreader said:

There is no evidence that the Dingyuan destroyed its own bridge.

Click to expand...

It was the "flying bridge", often defined as "an open area on top of a ship's pilothouse that serves as an oeprating station for officers in good weather".

I can only cite existing references, such as this one:


At the Yalu the Ting Yuen’s very first shot, fired almost straight ahead, missed the enemy. But the blast from the gun demolished the flying bridge upon which Admiral Ting and his British advisor, W. F. Tyler, were standing, knocking the admiral out for two hours and deafening Tyler for life . . . obviously the useful arc of fire of the guns was limited!

Wait-I don't understand what happened. Did the shell hit the bridge? (I think that's impossible.) Did flame and gasses coming out of the barrel burn the guys? Was it the shockwave? Or something I have no idea about?

Finn McCool said:

Wait-I don't understand what happened. Did the shell hit the bridge? (I think that's impossible.) Did flame and gasses coming out of the barrel burn the guys? Was it the shockwave? Or something I have no idea about?

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I am pretty certain that it was just the shockwave.

adeptitus said:

It was the "flying bridge", often defined as "an open area on top of a ship's pilothouse that serves as an oeprating station for officers in good weather".

I can only cite existing references, such as this one:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

At the Yalu the Ting Yuen’s very first shot, fired almost straight ahead, missed the enemy. But the blast from the gun demolished the flying bridge upon which Admiral Ting and his British advisor, W. F. Tyler, were standing, knocking the admiral out for two hours and deafening Tyler for life . . . obviously the useful arc of fire of the guns was limited!

Click to expand...

Once again, like I said, there never was any evidence to back up this assertion.

The Dingyuan's fly bridge was destroyed. There are historical records to back up this point and it is widely acknowledged (which in fact, led to the lack of centralized command of the Beiyang fleet during Jiawu), however, there are far more credible claims that the flying bridge was destroyed by enemy fire than friendly fire.