100 Year Anniversary of Xinhai Revolution

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
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A well written article, though I disagree with the following assessment:
But China faces formidable challenges ahead. Its high-growth model, although superior to the Soviet model, is no longer sustainable. The lack of energy and natural resources, the pressure of a rapidly aging population, the increasing gap between the rich and poor, and the deteriorating environment all require visionary and innovative political leadership.

Such political leadership is in short supply in China today, largely due to the fact that the Chinese mainland’s struggle to achieve national independence and economic prosperity has not been accompanied by bold democratic reforms, as happened in Taiwan, where the Nationalist party holds power through democratic elections.
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Democracy produces risk-averse governments who are far more likely to maintain the status quo than to take bold new directions. Just look at the United States: Obama is a visionary and innovative leader, but his vision and innovation amount to nothing because neither Congress nor Senate is willing to take risks on innovation.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Democracy is the new religion in the west, and it is advocated and defended with no less zeal and fanaticism in the west today as the old religions were in the time of the crusades.
 
K

kyanges

Junior Member
Not that there's anything wrong with democracy itself though. It's just the "Democracy" with a capital "D" that's being equated with a government built around multi-party (or just 2 party) elections that seems to have lost its luster, right?

Might have to specify the definition of "Democracy" we're working with here before people start to knock it.
 
I

i.e.

Senior Member
Just got through some old classic philosophies plato and socrates. and histories by Livy,
and I saw this thread.
What amuses me the most is that the contemporary philosophers of Classic Athens in Peloponnesian war were all very critical of athenian and the democratic tradition it represented and were all very much on the side of Sparta. In their opinion athenians system turned honest man into selfish individual whose gloated sense of self importance is only matched by the short sighted greed.

It was said that the Gods of Mt Olympus rejoiced when athens fell.
 
I

i.e.

Senior Member
The reason china was able to maintain the fastest growth rates of any society on this planet, was precisely because it did not go "democratic". Do you think Mr Zhu Rongji is able to crush the entrenched interests, layoff 20 million employees (yes, 20 million layoffs), and reform the old-SOE system into the money-making imperial juggernauts of today, if he was elected democratically??? well I didn't see any eastern european countries did it that well.

and much of the factual assertion of that article is false, as was the caption on the accompanying illustration. the caption clearly says ***Marxisim can be summed up with one sentence: "It is right to rebel."" ***, not Mao Zedong's philosophy.
tse tse, over all, a peice of crap.
 
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In4ser

In4ser

Junior Member
Happy 100th ROC!!! Too bad I couldn't be in Kaohsiung with my family there to celebrate!!!
 
L

Lezt

Junior Member
i.e. said:
Just got through some old classic philosophies plato and socrates. and histories by Livy,
and I saw this thread.
What amuses me the most is that the contemporary philosophers of Classic Athens in Peloponnesian war were all very critical of athenian and the democratic tradition it represented and were all very much on the side of Sparta. In their opinion athenians system turned honest man into selfish individual whose gloated sense of self importance is only matched by the short sighted greed.

It was said that the Gods of Mt Olympus rejoiced when athens fell.
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Oh I much agree so, besides, Democracy like Communism is an ideal society that does not work. What we have nowadays is only representative majority rule. As George Washington puts it: "democracy is two wolf and a lamb voting for what to eat for lunch"

Inherently democracy is discriminatory, for the need of citizenship for rights is inherently segergatory.

The thing is, innovators are risk takers, gamblers and are totalitarian like Steve Jobs. Maintainers, wardens and watchmen are careful, timid, council based and aversive like Bill Gates. They should rotate every 10-15 years for the best results.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Democracy is excellent for protecting its citizens' rights. It's lousy for making drastic changes (necessary or not) to the state. Look how long it took for women to get the vote and for blacks to become equal citizens. How long did it take for women and ethnic minorities to become equal under PRC law? A single pronouncement from Chairman Mao.
 
R

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Guys, I thought this would be non-political thread.

Ethnical Chinese including Taiwan and Mainland China and overseas (see my subtle wording plays there?)... all celeberating this event, not because of some political bosses push this event on their own agenda, but for the cherish that what our forefathers has bleed for - a civil sovereignty nation, vs a dynasty of a certain family.

While today, some would seek political gains by shouting the "D" words, our forefathers didn't do it for "a bigger portion of a cake" which spells voting pools, but to seek the ways to preserve a nation's integrity - Republic dose better than a family business called dynasty, so be it! China, is not going to be slaves of collaborated powers.

Let people judge the "how the cake distributed" problem of later times at other occasions, Xinhai Revolution is not to be tainted by modern political polutional agendas. - Xinhai Revolution fight for the integrity and continual existance of a Chinese Nation, we all cherish THAT, dispite which "factions" the Chinese people comes from (over the world).
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Red___Sword said:
Guys, I thought this would be non-political thread.

Ethnical Chinese including Taiwan and Mainland China and overseas (see my subtle wording plays there?)... all celeberating this event, not because of some political bosses push this event on their own agenda, but for the cherish that what our forefathers has bleed for - a civil sovereignty nation, vs a dynasty of a certain family.

While today, some would seek political gains by shouting the "D" words, our forefathers didn't do it for "a bigger portion of a cake" which spells voting pools, but to seek the ways to preserve a nation's integrity - Republic dose better than a family business called dynasty, so be it! China, is not going to be slaves of collaborated powers.

Let people judge the "how the cake distributed" problem of later times at other occasions, Xinhai Revolution is not to be tainted by modern political polutional agendas. - Xinhai Revolution fight for the integrity and continual existance of a Chinese Nation, we all cherish THAT, dispite which "factions" the Chinese people comes from (over the world).
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That is true. History, as usual, is being co-opted by each side, but the true force that drove the success of the Xinhai Revolution was the sheer desire for change. The Confucian Feudalism of the past two millenia have proved inadequate in the face of rifles and steam engines. The Xinhai Revolution was not a revolution for "freedom and democracy", nor was it for Socialism (that came much later). It was first and foremost a revolution AGAINST a dying and corrupt society and system of government.

And that, really, is why the Xinhai was only a partial success. Because it was primarily an anti-imperial revolution, once the Qing was toppled, the country fell into warlordism. The common soldiers believed that the imperial system had to go, but they didn't really believe in democracy or nation building.

The nation building would come later, with the invasion of the Japanese.
 
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