Ukrainian War Developments

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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That's then there's countries like Poland, France and the UK, who never had any real experience of it as they were under the umbrella of another nuclear power.
France's doctrine in the 1970s was basically to use tactical nukes on Soviet mass armored formations once they entered Germany. Then if the Warsaw Pact forces continued towards their border they would nuke: Moscow, St. Petersburg, London, and New York if I remember correctly. All at the same time. This was supposed to ensure total destruction of the Warsaw Pact forces. Since France never had enough nukes to blow it all up themselves.
 

MortyandRick

Senior Member
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Or perhaps US will install new electronic equipment on the jets before they are transferred?

Some of the kit the Russians are using is absolutely state of the art:


Of course we shouldn't laugh too hard because the biggest single arms supplier to the Ukrainian Army since the war began is in fact Russia.

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Hahaha so much for that. Word are cheap. That's all US and NATO can afford. All this useless talk and mental masturbation is really showing.
 

ArmchairAnalyst

Junior Member
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Finland's potential NATO membership contradicts everything in the 1992 Treaty on Finland's obligation to Russia and vice versa.

Since we're on the legality of the matter, and yes it's getting OT unless you want to argue Russo-Finnish relations are related to the war, which it actually is, those pieces you've linked to are nothing more than commentaries and rhetoric that has no legal bearing on the actual legality that governs Finnish and Russian relations at the state level, which is to be expected since these are written by political commentators at best, journalists at worst, certainly not by legal experts.

Finland isn't treaty-bound by the TEU to participate in mutual defence due to her neutral status. If she chooses to forsake her neutrality and join NATO it will be a political and practical decision, not a legal one no matter how the politicians would have you believe.

And by joining NATO Finland risks running afoul of the 1992 Treaty with Russia as Finland is indeed treaty-bound to remain neutral vis-a-vis Russia, and as such it gives grounds for Russia to treat her legal and political relationship with Finland as defined by the Treaty as void.

It therefore provides ammo for Russia to have a legitimate ground to cease being neutral to Finland, as Finland is no longer neutral to Russia.
I would like a link to some source(s) for your interpretation since mine aren't good enough for you.
We are discussing whether Finland can become a NATO member or not, aren't we?
That said we can definitely agree that the treaty could and most likely would become void in case of Finnish NATO membership.
That depends how Russia sees it at that time.
It might also be formally denounced as part of that process if deemed legally nessesary or even possible.
Finally, cease being neutral does not give legitimate ground to being hostile or declaring war either.

For relevans to the current situation in Ukraine this definitely isn't the kind of neutrality treaty Russia would demand.
Something akin to the old one from 1948 would be much more likely.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
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Helius

Senior Member
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I would like a link to some source(s) for your interpretation since mine aren't good enough for you.
We are discussing whether Finland can become a NATO member or not, aren't we?
That said we can definitely agree that the treaty could and most likely would become void in case of Finnish NATO membership.
That depends how Russia sees it at that time.
It might also be formally denounced as part of that process if deemed legally nessesary or even possible.
Finally, cease being neutral does not give legitimate ground to being hostile or declaring war either.

For relevans to the current situation in Ukraine this definitely isn't the kind of neutrality treaty Russia would demand.
Something akin to the old one from 1948 would be much more likely.
Finland isn't "forbidden" to join NATO just like Russia isn't forbidden to treat Finland as an enemy if Finland does join.

Finland can violate as many bilateral and multi-lateral treaties as she deems fit to satisfy her desire to be part of the NATO club, just like Russia has no doubt violated numerous international treaties and agreements on sovereignty and territorial integrity by invading Ukraine.

And no, to cease being neutral does not mean you have to be hostile to your neighbour, but it certainly does not guarantee you won't act hostile towards them, and them towards you, because you throw away the only piece of paper that gives you that guarantee.
 

ArmchairAnalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Finland isn't "forbidden" to join NATO just like Russia isn't forbidden to treat Finland as an enemy if Finland does join.

Finland can violate as many bilateral and multi-lateral treaties as she deems fit to satisfy her desire to be part of the NATO club, just like Russia has no doubt violated numerous international treaties and agreements on sovereignty and territorial integrity by invading Ukraine.

And no, to cease being neutral does not mean you have to be hostile to your neighbour, but it certainly does not guarantee you won't act hostile towards them, and them towards you, because you throw away the only piece of paper that gives you that guarantee.
On that we can agree !
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Actually, the US has been overplaying its hand since withdrawing from the INF, but was, and remains, too impressed by the appearance of its own strength to appreciate it.

The foundational strength of Russia is she can destroy the US and, as a great power, has nothing to lose.

When confronted by a power reaching for a goal for truly existential reasons, you should either be prepared to kill him, or you stay out of his way. US can’t kill Russia without being killed. And the US, as a great power has too much to lose. But the US was not smart enough to stay out of the way, and it may be dawning on the US That might be wise to not resist too hard to being shoved out of the way.
 
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sferrin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Finland isn't "forbidden" to join NATO just like Russia isn't forbidden to treat Finland as an enemy if Finland does join.

Finland can violate as many bilateral and multi-lateral treaties as she deems fit to satisfy her desire to be part of the NATO club,

Which Treaties has Finland violated?
 
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