last year in this thread there was some discussion as to who came up with the wave-piercing catamaran first, the Scandinavians with the theory or the Chinese with the actual design. I submit a third alternative to the forum. The Australian company Incat have been building boats like the type 022 for over 10 years.
Catamaran designs and implications for the PLAN
- Thread starter jonsl
- Start date
Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN
The Chinese have been building wave piercing catamarans for civil, ferry and passenger use since the early nineties. But its likely to have been inspired and thought by Australian companies. There are a lot of Australian companies doing cats, not just the one mentioned above. A company called AMD actually has one very similar in size and design to the 022 but only for patrol use and has a helicopter deck.
The Chinese have been building wave piercing catamarans for civil, ferry and passenger use since the early nineties. But its likely to have been inspired and thought by Australian companies. There are a lot of Australian companies doing cats, not just the one mentioned above. A company called AMD actually has one very similar in size and design to the 022 but only for patrol use and has a helicopter deck.
Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN
according to the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney, the wave-piercing cat design was an innovation by Phil Hercus in 1984, the guy behind Incat (International Catamaran Designs) in Tasmania. So one may say the three hull type design on the 022 is indeed an Aussie invention. Funny how this was not mentioned on CCTV4
according to the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney, the wave-piercing cat design was an innovation by Phil Hercus in 1984, the guy behind Incat (International Catamaran Designs) in Tasmania. So one may say the three hull type design on the 022 is indeed an Aussie invention. Funny how this was not mentioned on CCTV4
Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN
I don't think the 022 design is from Incat's. Look at this from AMD, which is another Aussie firm. The design is much closer to the 022.
Here is a whole bunch of them too.
I don't think the 022 design is from Incat's. Look at this from AMD, which is another Aussie firm. The design is much closer to the 022.
Here is a whole bunch of them too.
I think it could be a while into the future before we'll see the PLAN deploy something like a 600T payload 4000nm range ocean going cat. reason being if you want speed you can get there by il-76, if you want tonnage you can use any boring ship. Something like the HSV offers a niche that is not worth spending the money on, and could be hard to develop..how is China's water-jet technology
then again it could be real interesting if China decides to come up with an LST of sorts. The Incats have this drive-on drive-off configuration which makes the transportation of trucks easy. I imagine you could design a rear ramp that can let off a bunch of amphibious tanks and APCs. Make a 60kt dash for the coast and point the arse end in :roll:..certainly the low draft would help here
and could be hard to develop..how is China's water-jet technology then again it could be real interesting if China decides to come up with an LST of sorts. The Incats have this drive-on drive-off configuration which makes the transportation of trucks easy. I imagine you could design a rear ramp that can let off a bunch of amphibious tanks and APCs. Make a 60kt dash for the coast and point the arse end in :roll:..certainly the low draft would help here
Pointblank
Senior Member
The problem will be escorting these ships... it is not exactly feasible to have the ships you are escorting at cruise be able to outrun your escorts when they are at full power. You will need to setup a chain of escorts to escort such a ship to its destination. It works when there is short distances, but across the ocean, it is impossible.
Also, some catamaran designs are not suited for open ocean use... especially very rough sea conditions, where only monohulled ships and SWATH ships will have good seakeeping. And SWATH ships have the disadvantage that they are very expensive, have a complex control system, a deep draught, high maintenance, a high power requirement (will require 80% more power than a equivalent catamaran), and limited speed. So you will have soldiers that are soon puking and very sick after an hour long voyage. Not good for morale and warfighting. Also, stored equipment can become loose, and bang into each other. In the end, in a moderately rough seas, you get banged up and dented equipment to land.
Furthermore, a typical fast RO-RO carrier will have approximately half the capacity of an average conventional RO-RO carrier at almost twice the speed. If you need speed, send it by air. If you need to take lots of it, send it by ship.
Also, some catamaran designs are not suited for open ocean use... especially very rough sea conditions, where only monohulled ships and SWATH ships will have good seakeeping. And SWATH ships have the disadvantage that they are very expensive, have a complex control system, a deep draught, high maintenance, a high power requirement (will require 80% more power than a equivalent catamaran), and limited speed. So you will have soldiers that are soon puking and very sick after an hour long voyage. Not good for morale and warfighting. Also, stored equipment can become loose, and bang into each other. In the end, in a moderately rough seas, you get banged up and dented equipment to land.
Furthermore, a typical fast RO-RO carrier will have approximately half the capacity of an average conventional RO-RO carrier at almost twice the speed. If you need speed, send it by air. If you need to take lots of it, send it by ship.
Despite what you say, the deployment of the HSV-1 in the Gulf seems to be quite successful (note the ship is an Incat product from Australia), ferrying troops and supplies that the US Navy seems willing to investigate the role further.
As for cat combat ship, look up at the USN's Sea Fighter, which has even bred proposals for even more longer ranging designs.
I am inclined to think that the 022 might have a follow on, probably a more corvette sized of ship that may include a CIWS, organic sensors, and a helicopter deck. The role of cats as transpors for a Taiwan landing is real for the PLAN, since it is likely to induct civilian ships to this role, and there are a lot of large civil ferry catamarans plying in Chinese coast and rivers today. Building large cats is a major part of the Chinese ship industry.
As for cat combat ship, look up at the USN's Sea Fighter, which has even bred proposals for even more longer ranging designs.
I am inclined to think that the 022 might have a follow on, probably a more corvette sized of ship that may include a CIWS, organic sensors, and a helicopter deck. The role of cats as transpors for a Taiwan landing is real for the PLAN, since it is likely to induct civilian ships to this role, and there are a lot of large civil ferry catamarans plying in Chinese coast and rivers today. Building large cats is a major part of the Chinese ship industry.
Pointblank
Senior Member
1. If your deploying such a ship to potentially hostile territory, you need to escort the ship all the way to the final destination. HMAS Jervis Bay in its shuttle run between Australia and East Timor during the East Timor crisis was escorted by lining up escorting warships along the path as the intentions of the Indonesian Navy was unknown at the time, and the Indonesian Navy had warships and submarines out at the time. Thankfully, the distance between East Timor and Australia where short enough to allow the line of escorting ships to work. Having a transport ship that can outrun the escorts is a major problem. The NATO standard cruise speed is 18 knots. Warships don't cruise at 30 knots across an ocean unless it is an emergency. A convoy's max speed is determined by the slowest ship in the convoy, and in that case, it is the escorting warships.
2. Sea Fighter is a SWATH-hull design. SWATH hulls are very stable in rough sea conditions, but they are limited in max speed and they require more power than conventional catamarans of the same size and capability.
Let me get this straight. You're suggesting that a picket line has to be made from origin to destination. A picket line of ships lined up like a great wall.
All you really need to do is set up zones of control, or corridors where each set of escort vessels have a responsibility of patrolling. When that exercise is done, it is no more costly than setting up a convoy. The problem of a convoy is that whoever you are supplying to is at the mercy of this convoy, so he won't get his supplies in time and when he needs it the most. This is unlike if you have a ferry that can quickly bring in supplies when you want.
When you have sea superiority you are going to set up these zones anyway.
Now who can threaten the cat ferry? It has to be a warship that is fast enough to catch it sustained at over 30 knots and that list really thins down.
Now about the Sea Fighter. Take a look at its hull. SWATH or not, it looks a lot more streamlined than you suggest it to be. That gives it quite a bit of top speed, the Sea Fighter is indeed fast, and no reason why it won't be uneconomical. As a matter of fact, the hull design here reminds us of another cat hull we know quite well.
There is nothing to suggest its slow but fast. Given the suggestions of future ships, nothing to indicate that it is uneconomical either.
All you really need to do is set up zones of control, or corridors where each set of escort vessels have a responsibility of patrolling. When that exercise is done, it is no more costly than setting up a convoy. The problem of a convoy is that whoever you are supplying to is at the mercy of this convoy, so he won't get his supplies in time and when he needs it the most. This is unlike if you have a ferry that can quickly bring in supplies when you want.
When you have sea superiority you are going to set up these zones anyway.
Now who can threaten the cat ferry? It has to be a warship that is fast enough to catch it sustained at over 30 knots and that list really thins down.
Now about the Sea Fighter. Take a look at its hull. SWATH or not, it looks a lot more streamlined than you suggest it to be. That gives it quite a bit of top speed, the Sea Fighter is indeed fast, and no reason why it won't be uneconomical. As a matter of fact, the hull design here reminds us of another cat hull we know quite well.
There is nothing to suggest its slow but fast. Given the suggestions of future ships, nothing to indicate that it is uneconomical either.
Attachments
-
Sea_fighter.jpg