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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
...the interesting part, however, is AMCA.
As we established, Tejas line, for all it's hardship, is neat and logical, producing two well-rounded and well thought aircraft.

It is more complex with AMCA.
First of all, AMCA itself is more or less a translation of Tejas mk2 tech stack onto a parallel medium weight counterpart.

The more interesting is what AMCA is.
Pylon configuration is complex: 1 standard wide IWB, 6 underwing points; 1 shoulder point for targeting pod.
I.e. jet doesn't carry neither IRST nor EOTS inside.

This is rather counterintuitive: in 5 gen, you can do it 3 ways:
- you don't really think about fighting other 5 gens(f-22) and just aim at bullying 4.5 gens. For this, just one radar set is good enough. A sensible choice for a 2006 aircraft.
- you are strike/multirole, and install EOTS inside. EOTS doubles as a worse IRST v stealth aircraft.
- you are A2A first, and you supplement your radar with means more effective v stealth equals: IRST, DBR.
Some aircraft don't bother chosing (Kaan/Kizilelma).

The problem is that some don't bother picking anything: and that's AMCA.
It doesn't have IRST; i.e. it's ability to target 5th generation is ironically below Tejas mk.2 and potentially even Rafale. It will always lose detection/id race.
It doesn't have internal bombsight either - i.e., as a multirole, it's rather constrained in LO configuration(or, in permissible configuration, it's barely better than Tejas mk.2...for twice the aircraft and golden F414).
Finally, at least to date, India didn't really demonstrate much in suitable internal weapons for it's bays. Granted, 500kg bombs(gravity and glide kits) will probably fit. But this isn't a very high bar, certainly not enough to justify an aircraft.

Do I miss something? What's it supposed to be good at? The only clue I could come up with is AMCA is almost exactly same size with mig-29, i.e. (similarly to LCA) is a heavier interceptor designed to fit into same HAS. But it was never explicitly written, and frankly this isn't enough of a reason to exist.

I generally sympathise with your points on the Tejas topic before the Pakistani troll presenting as Jaihind derailed the thread with some internet airforce ranking nonsense.

So much of AMCA requires the Tejas program and the systems nurtured along with it to become successful and matured. At the moment, the only ones within this set is the Astra missile and the ability to manufacture the aircraft itself. Yes these are still achievements but the Uttam has yet to even make an appearance within a service Tejas. Much further from becoming a mainstay first generation AESA fighter radar with IAF and even further from maturing in that role and developing as a baseline for AMCA's radar technologies.

I fail to see how India can truly produce AMCA by even 2040s to even the degree Turkey has been able to bring KAAN into today. Being close to 20 years behind Turkey (assuming India produces AMCA flying prototypes in mid 2040s) is clearly unacceptable to IAF. Let's speed things up by 10 years then. Pakistan would likely have serious numbers of J-35. While Indians celebrate nonsense, their real world power standing would falter even against Pakistan and every real conflict and every real after effect will reflect this. Maybe Indians and their leadership is destined to be at the lower rungs globally because there doesn't appear to be a stabilising/correcting mechanism for India. They only deal in fantasies and internet cope delusions.

This whole idea of AMCA is plain silly when Tejas absolutely needs to go through this journey properly and become domesticated component by component. They wanted to do a single bigger leap but took 40 years longer than China doing smaller leaps while developing domestic industries.

Let's ignore engines. Why are they not putting Uttam into service and improving it over the years or in Indian time, over the next decades? That should be step 1. Astra is a good showing. At least it's there doing it's thing, working, improving.

Mk1A is a good step albeit slower than snails pace. Mk2 should be redefined. They absolutely need to pour into their domestic Tejas. The reason for not doing is the thinking/belief that IAF requires a certain number to counter Pakistan effectively. This simply isn't true. PAF quite easily is an equal to the IAF in overall effectivenes but Pakistan would not be able to counter India's sheer weight no more than Japan could counter China's sheer weight. India should simply invest in ability to hit Pakistan harder than Pakistan can do to India with all price for doing so considered, which is something it already does and has. This half arsed, one foot in both bets strategy India always takes, will not produce for them any semi-decent domestic military aviation ecosystem for much longer than they require.

Take money out of IAF's ability to purchase internationally and invest all that into developing India's domestic talent. They can already hit Pakistan harder than Pakistan can do to India. Maybe these investments will bear fruit in the mid term future and India could complete its first step with the Tejas in full and kickstart domestic engine program with a serious effort which bears fruit in further decades. They don't like long term planning and don't appear capable of it. Instead of this "we buy 100+ RAfales at over 200M per pop total package while we invest a pittance into HAL and blame it every time we get a reality check and make delusions about ""ToT"" for engines while we try to rebrand the M88 modified as Kevari".
 
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AlexYe

Senior Member
Registered Member
Pakistani troll presenting as Jaihind
Bruh
This whole idea of AMCA is plain silly when Tejas absolutely needs to go through this journey properly
Perhaps they are thinking they will start on the AMCA 'for now' and work parrallel and hope to indigenize many of the stuff from tejas by the time comes for AMCA and use that experience for that?
India should simply invest in ability to hit Pakistan harder than Pakistan can do to India
That sounds alot like US-Iran where US can hit iran much harder but US has much more to lose than iran does even with smaller number of hits. I dont think this works.
They don't like long term planning
Which is unfortunate because India had the chance, Modi admin has been india's longest service government now, so they def could have laid groundwork a decade ago.
 

Lethe

Captain
As a kid, I recall a fascinating slim blue hardcover book that assigned star ratings to various types of military hardware. Kresta-class cruiser: two stars for ASW, three stars for AAW -- that sort of thing. I'm pretty sure the methodology behind that book was substantially more robust than whatever is going on with WDMMA.

Certain topics and sources offer no prospects of useful discussion and serve only to distract from other, more reasonable and useful discussions. In small doses these can be ignored. In larger doses they should probably be erased. Another thing that detracts from useful discussions is the apparent inability of some posters to refrain from weirdly racialised insults, particularly in relation to India and Indians. We should hold ourselves to higher standards here.



The sixth of seven P17A frigates, INS Mahendragiri, was
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NDTV
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that a P15C destroyer program is in the works alongside P17B frigate and P18A destroyer programs:

Sources revealed to NDTV that the projects are going through various rounds of internal consultations and planning before moving forward to the defence acquisition process.

[....]

The largest and first of these upcoming projects is Project 15C, under which the Navy plans to build four next-generation guided-missile destroyers, at an estimated cost of around Rs 50,000 crore.

According to sources, the Ministry of Defence is expected to issue the Request For Proposal (RFP) within the next year. Construction of the ships would then begin roughly three years after the RFP is issued, once design approval and procurement clearances are in place.

These destroyers would use the capabilities that were available in Kolkata-class (Project 15A) and Visakhapatnam-class (Project 15B) destroyers, as well as newer sensors, weapons, electronic warfare and improved air defence systems.

The second project would be the Project 17B, according to which, the Navy intends to build six advanced stealth frigates, costing Rs 40,000 crore.

Sources revealed that the current plan is for the construction of these six frigates to be shared between the two topmost Indian shipyards, where Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) would build three frigates, while the remaining three frigates would be constructed by Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE).

The RFP for Project 17B is expected to be issued in approximately 18 months' time, while construction of the ships would begin after about four years from the RFP issuance, subject to procurement clearances.

Among the three, Project 18A stands out as the biggest and most ambitious - officials describe it as the Navy's next-generation large surface combatant programme.

Sources told NDTV that the Navy wants to construct six warships of 14,000-15,000 tonnes, among the biggest combatants ever constructed in India. They would have enhanced strike capability, air and missile defence, command and control systems, as well as increased endurance for far flung missions.

Unlike Projects 15C and 17B, Project 18A is still at a much earlier stage of planning. The RFP is expected to be issued only in the next three years, while ship construction could begin after around eight years, given the complexity of the platform.

Compared to the previously mooted pathway, P17B is retained while the future P18 destroyer program appears to have been split between P15C and P18A, presumably for some combination of schedule, cost, and technical risk reasons. Yet that the budget for four P15C destroyers is said to exceed that for six P17B frigates implies that the former will be more than a simple update of P15B. If these plans are approved in something resembling the form described above, the four P15C destroyers and six P17B frigates will likely be India's lot for the 2030s, supplemented by eight Next-Generation Corvettes (really, light frigates), with P18A unlikely to bear fruit till the 2040s.

Eighteen major surface combatants for the 2030s (4xP15C, 6xP17B, 8xNGC) compares against fifteen for the 2020s (4xP15B, 7xP17A, 4xTalwar). Assuming that the remaining geriatric Rajput-class destroyers exit this decade rather than next, these eighteen combatants of the 2030s would presumably replace some or all those commissioned to the mid-2000s: 3xP15, 3xP16A, 3xTalwar.
 
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