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Randomuser

Major
Registered Member
Japan modernized faster because it was “right-sized”: large enough to have resources and complexity, but small enough to coordinate elites quickly, while China’s scale made coordination slow and interests divergent. Culturally, Japan was also much more adaptive to foreign ideas, as Japan was a peripheral civilization that was quick to absorb ideas and institutions from the dominant core civilization, whereas China was the dominant "universal," civilization that had seen itself as the center and source of civilization for millennia. Japan was further boosted by preferential investment and aid from many European powers, whom saw Japan as useful to containing Russian expansion in the Far East.

Qing did modernize, but at a slower and more uneven pace. Uncontrolled modernization could potentially pose a threat to central state power, and ultimately did lead to the downfall of the dynasty.
I don't think Japan is better at adapting foreign ideas. In fact I think it's a lot worse than China who actually had to deal with foreigners throughout it's history. Looking at modern times as reference where the average people have even worse English than China who was literally closed off from the world for a while and are more ignorant about the world on how things actually work. It's an island after all. But unlike the Brits they made no interest in exploring the world and in fact did the opposite for a while before modernization.

What helped is Japan was just the right size. Emperor Meiji could gather enough resources and men to kill off all the samurai/military generals who opposed him and his reforms. It's funny how modern Japan jerks off it's noble samurai so much yet gives little attention to this part. I've seen more media from the west covering this like the Last Samurai or that Shotgun 2 expansion pack game.

Qing china is just too damn large. Imagine current china with outer Mongolia and Taiwan as well but with much slower pace and a lot more morons in government. You will need at least 100 years to get anything done and Europeans had battleships just parked outside the shores.
 

Puss in Boots

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan modernized faster because it was “right-sized”: large enough to have resources and complexity, but small enough to coordinate elites quickly, while China’s scale made coordination slow and interests divergent. Culturally, Japan was also more adaptive to foreign ideas, as Japan was a peripheral civilization that was quick to absorb ideas and institutions from the dominant core civilization, whereas China was the dominant "universal," civilization that had seen itself as the center and source of civilization for millennia. Japan was further boosted by preferential investment and aid from many European powers, whom saw Japan as useful to containing Russian expansion in the Far East.

Qing did modernize, albeit at a slower and more uneven pace. Uncontrolled modernization could potentially pose a threat to central state power, which ultimately did in fact cause the downfall of the dynasty.
The Qing Dynasty failed to keep pace with the times, and its elimination was inevitable. This is why the Qing Dynasty could not achieve a higher historical standing!

You mentioned that the Qing Dynasty's development had many unfavorable factors. Do you think these unfavorable factors suddenly disappeared after the founding of the People's Republic of China? Ultimately, the Qing Dynasty was a backward empire that was stuck in its ways.

Today's discussion of the Qing Dynasty's failure should be based on historical facts, not on finding various excuses to absolve it. I could find a thousand reasons to explain the Qing Dynasty's backwardness, but that would be meaningless.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
You mentioned that the Qing Dynasty's development had many unfavorable factors. Do you think these unfavorable factors suddenly disappeared after the founding of the People's Republic of China? Ultimately, the Qing Dynasty was a backward empire that was stuck in its ways.
Qing, ROC and PRC are a long chain of try-fail-try-success experiments. The unfavorable factors are gradually eliminated by generation of Chinese through this long period. PRC made better than ROC by avoiding what ROC has proven to be wrong/not-working. ROC tried something new after Qing showed the dead-end. It is not a magic that PRC is super smart than ROC than Qing. We got where we are today thanks to both the rights and wrongs that our predecessors did.

You know that Mao Zedong (before the Russian revolution) was very nationalistic before he came to contact with Marxism? He sounded not much different from Sun Zhongshan and Jiang Jieshi. Only later in his youth he changed his world view to social class angle instead of nationalism and culture. This change applies to all communist leaders. They saw Qing's tried and failed constitional mornach, Sun Zhongshan's failed western style democracy, that left only Marxism to try.

Did the "unfavorable factors" suddenly disappeared in front of communist? Yes kind of, Qing and ROC have eliminated them from being valid options for China. The thing is that unfavorable factors are hurdles, the mother of all hurdles is not machine, gun, tech but world view (世界观) and how we approach challenges (方法论).

This situation has happened at least two times before 1900s. The first was Qin and Han making the first emperial era, Qin started but could not fix everything and fell, Han continued with modifications (汉随秦制) and lasted. The second is Sui and Tang. To some extent Yuan is like Qin and Sui being relatively short lived but started a new era that only got everthing ironed out by successors. Today we don't blame the short-lived efforts but appreciate they began the tries.
 
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Puss in Boots

Junior Member
Registered Member
Qing, ROC and PRC are a long chain of try-fail-try-success experiments. The unfavorable factors are gradually eliminated by generation of Chinese through this long period. PRC made better than ROC by avoiding what ROC has proven to be wrong/not-working. ROC tried something new after Qing showed the dead-end. It is not a magic that PRC is super smart than ROC than Qing. We got where we are today thanks to both the rights and wrongs that our predecessors did.

You know that Mao Zedong (before the Russian revolution) was very nationalistic before he came to contact with Marxism? He sounded not much different from Sun Zhongshan and Jiang Jieshi. Only later in his youth he changed his world view to social class angle instead of nationalism and culture. This change applies to all communist leaders. They saw Qing's tried and failed constitional mornach, Sun Zhongshan's failed western style democracy, that left only Marxism to try.

Did the "unfavorable factors" suddenly disappeared in front of communist? Yes kind of, Qing and ROC have eliminated them from being valid options for China. The thing is that unfavorable factors are hurdles, the mother of all hurdles is not machine, gun, tech but world view (世界观) and how we approach challenges (方法论).

This situation has happened at least two times before 1900s. The first was Qin and Han making the first emperial era, Qin started but could not fix everything and fell, Han continued with modifications (汉随秦制) and lasted. The second is Sui and Tang. To some extent Yuan is like Qin and Sui being relatively short lived but started a new era that only got everthing ironed out by successors. Today we don't blame the short-lived efforts but appreciate they began the tries.
First, this topic arose because some argue that the two Qing Dynasty emperors hold the highest historical status in Chinese history.

Second, there are countless wrong paths, but the right path is always fraught with peril.

Therefore, we should thank those predecessors who explored the future, but those who chose the right path deserve our even greater respect.
 

zbb

Senior Member
Registered Member

I feel like this thing will hallucinate like crazy and will practically be useless like the Patriot AD system. Useless,overpriced and only meant to intimidate the "enemy" because it sounds like future tech from SCIFI films.

An AI that hallucinates like crazy (in the "right" way) provides the perfect excuse for war crimes as well as protection against potential whistle blowers.

A human that orders a triple tap cruise missile attack against a girls' elementary school is a war criminal and people that report the war crime are protected (at least in theory) by whistle blower protection laws. When the same type of attacks are ordered by AI or automated computer algorithms, no human is responsible, and anyone reporting the problematic behavior and parameter settings of the AI or computer algorithms would be criminally leaking classified performance information and parameter settings of top secret defense systems.

Palantir's biggest client by far is the US government, particularly the US military and intelligence agencies.
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. The Israeli military also
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.

Former NSA analyst
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No one was punished for the widespread drone killings of civilians in Afghanistan except Daniel Hale.
 
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siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
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And the US tried to get the Middle East to go terrorist on China because they were developing renewables taking away money they would be making on selling oil… And Americans don’t think they’re evil…?
It’s pretty much public knowledge that their leadership rape and kill children. Of course they know they are ruled by very evil people.
 
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