Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Tejas is 40 years, Arjun was 30. It is not a matter of shortsightedness.
Problem is corruption and unrealistic goals. Tejas was conceived with indigenous engine in mind, all digital FBW system, composite manufacturing, etc. It is a huge generational leap for India's manufacturing capabilities, simply too much to handle.
The person's tweet is on the wrong timeline, by 2008, J-20 was well under way to be flying in 2011. However, he is right that J-10A/B would be the most recent in service domestic design at that time, and not particularly impressive.
Also missing is the historical context. China had re-engineered MiG-21 into J-7, followed by the fully domestically designed J-8. The next major design was JH-7. None of these aircraft were impressive for the time period, but they were serviceable and more importantly, within the capabilities of the nation. Same with J-10A.
Marut, still India's only domestic design to reach service in decent numbers was a 2nd gen aircraft at best, something like a J-8 original, so it's trying to skip a lot of development.
On his point on decoupling the Kaveri from Tejas being a mistake, it is simply wrong. J-20 was also decoupled from the engine program, first flying with AL-31 before switching to WS-10, and now WS-15 (the engine to unlock the full planned potential). The program is a success. Again, it is not short sightedness, rather that India's industry is simply not capable.
Being incapable is not something to be ashamed of. 1980's China was not capable of producing J-9, the predecessor to J-10. 1980's China also couldn't afford J-8 Peace Pearl. To drag on these projects based on (un)deliverables can only be explained by corruption/hubris.
The author said he is going to delete his account soon in that tweet and "i give up ngl" before proceeding with the analysis.
We can clown on this all we want, but it probably is the smartest option depending on the workshare the French are willing to give the Indians. The indian government has shown itself to be horrendous in regards to funding future defense projects, and has self sabotaged itself dozens of times. Funding delays cause Tejas, Tejas Mk2, AMCA, and many others to be pushed back years purely because the funding wasn't allocated. Indian aerospace is too far behind to make a 6th generation aircraft from scratch and have it fly in a somewhat timely manor (before 2040 if we're very generous), saving FCAS and pairing with the French is probably the most likely way. Not to mention the French are designing it from the outset to be carrier capable, so if India wants to think ahead, it's probably the smartest long term option for their carriers. India shouldn't be in this position at all, but they continue to make mistake after mistake for years on end
Why do you assume Indian govt won't sabotage FCAS? In addition to what France already has, of course. And ask the Russians how good the Indians are at teamwork.
The problem is that the Indians can't bring anything to the table. They have zero technical expertise. They only have money, but with the money comes inflated self-importance. It will be the usual "we want 100% ToT" kvetching.
Europe doesn't have a viable 5th gen aircraft. It's mostly a subsidy to inefficient French, German and British MIC. That's why European countries that need a 5th gen aircraft and actually face serious geopolitical threats (e.g. Poland) choose the F-35.
And now we're supposed to believe Europe, which cannot create a 5th gen jet, is going to leapfrog to 6th gen? With Indians? It would be sad if it wasn't so funny.
I guess the only silver lining is that a manned 6th gen jet is unnecessary anyway. Most future combat will be drones, probably <10 years. It makes more sense to just develop better engines, rockets and sensors for drones, but Europe is behind on most of those too. India is a complete no-show. FCAS is not a serious proposition.
And now for the Rafale deal update:
The Make in India component is "much less than expected"? Who could have predicted this!?
And I don't even understand what kind of leverage the Indians have here. They've excluded the US because of Trump's antics. They have dissed the Russians. China is a non-starter. And their own Tejas is a joke. So what exactly are they going to tell the French? If you don't have options, you don't have leverage. Simple as.
I have a feeling this won't be the last Rafale deal India signs.
The Make in India component is "much less than expected"? Who could have predicted this!?
And I don't even understand what kind of leverage the Indians have here. They've excluded the US because of Trump's antics. They have dissed the Russians. China is a non-starter. And their own Tejas is a joke. So what exactly are they going to tell the French? If you don't have options, you don't have leverage. Simple as.
I have a feeling this won't be the last Rafale deal India signs.
but the question is, Europe have world class civil aviation industry include multiple Engine manufacturer and research institutes so why they couldn't build a reliable next generation fighter platform ??
The obvious answer is cost and Europeans trying to skim by on as low defense spending as possible post Cold War. They completely bought into the ideological framework of western supremacy being so large that there would no longer be any conflict outside of terrorism and that defense procurement needed to be non-threatening. The UK for example purposefully excluded VLS cells from ships that were designed to carry them because they were too offensive in nature. Not to mention that 5th generation aircraft are incredibly expensive, and many invested into the JSF and felt that a second 5th generation aircraft was unnecessary. Now they're dealing with the repercussions of austerity imposed after the 2008 financial crisis and have other significant problems looming that will require large amounts of money, particularly healthcare costs for elderly individuals and pensions.
IMO the needs of each individual European nation is too different for a 6th gen to work properly. The two countries with deep pockets France and Germany have far differing geopolitical obligations hence they will not agree on a common platform. Catering to french overseas interests will mean Germany footing the bill for a longer ranged plane that may need to be carrier capable for example.
Do German planes even carry weapons?