PLA Anti-Air Missile (SAM) systems

Tomboy

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What is HQ-16F/FE? Is it basically a extended range active homing version of the original HQ-16?
 

Godswill

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Current Chinese medium-range surface-to-air missile system (HQ-16) is kind of outdated, big missile and chunky platform with limited range.
I'm thinking why not develop a mid range surface-to-air missile from PL-15. Basically strap a PL-15 missile with a rocket booster, which propel it to high altitude with supersonic speed, then the booster is discarded, and the PL-15 do the rest (of course small modifications of PL-15 will be needed, but overall it will be mostly identical to air luanched PL-15). With some napkin math, I'm estimating the total missile weight should be only 400+kg but can achieve a range of 150km(export)/200km(domestic). There are other benefits too:

1. Standardization and economy of scale. Using the same missile across different platforms reduce cost and accelerate develop time-frame. And using Air-to-Air missile/component in surface-to-Air role is not unprecedented. SLAMRAAM/Sea Sparrow system use slightly modified Air-to-Air missile, ESSM uses AIM-120 radar and guidance system.

2. Active radar homing VS Semi-active radar homing. Since PL-15 missile is active radar homing, it does not need ground radar for last stage guidance, which reduces ground radar exposure. The proliferation of drones means that radio-frequency emitting equipment will be easily detected, and targeted. Using active radar homing greatly reduce risk of ground radar exposure.

3. Modern data-link. PL-15 is already equipped with data link, why not exploit it so that other platform can provide target info to air defense system.
 

qwerty3173

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Well, no, not exactly. If you understand the different launch conditions of missiles that are airborne or landlocked, you will see that the range achieved by land based systems are pitiful compared to their aerial counterparts. Its missile launched at minimum trans-sonic speeds in thinner atmosphere versus missiles launched at a standstill in the thickest atmosphere with the most resistance. In fact, US had developed a Humvee based aim-120 launcher years ago, but only managed to get around 30km range out of the missile. As a rule of thumb you can probably only get around one third the range with a land based launcher, and a 66km range of a hypothetical pl-15 launcher suddenly seems a lot less attractive, doesn't it.
 

Godswill

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Well, no, not exactly. If you understand the different launch conditions of missiles that are airborne or landlocked, you will see that the range achieved by land based systems are pitiful compared to their aerial counterparts. Its missile launched at minimum trans-sonic speeds in thinner atmosphere versus missiles launched at a standstill in the thickest atmosphere with the most resistance. In fact, US had developed a Humvee based aim-120 launcher years ago, but only managed to get around 30km range out of the missile. As a rule of thumb you can probably only get around one third the range with a land based launcher, and a 66km range of a hypothetical pl-15 launcher suddenly seems a lot less attractive, doesn't it.
That's why I strap a rocket booster to it. A 200+kg booster should propel it to high altitude with over Mach 1 speed, so it should have similar if not more range than air launched.
 

qwerty3173

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That's why I strap a rocket booster to it. A 200+kg booster should propel it to high altitude with over Mach 1 speed, so it should have similar if not more range than air launched.
Very interesting idea I would say. Since pl-15 is already 4m long attaching a booster end-on-end is a bit too unwieldy. Maybe attaching a booster to one side is better though this eliminates the option of launching from tubes. Too many redesigns to be a fast solution?
 

Godswill

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Very interesting idea I would say. Since pl-15 is already 4m long attaching a booster end-on-end is a bit too unwieldy. Maybe attaching a booster to one side is better though this eliminates the option of launching from tubes. Too many redesigns to be a fast solution?
I think attaching the booster end-on-end with the PL-15 is more reasonable, side-by-side would introduce too much interference with PL-15 control-fins, and bad for packaging.
Adding booster to missiles is pretty easy. Tomahawk is launched from Mk-41 VLS by rocket booster. SM-3/6 are using the same rocket booster, which is removed in the air-launched version of SM-6. These are all long missiles so I don't think length is a big challenge, the missile don't really need to maneuver in the early ascending stage anyway.
 
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Godswill

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IMO, there's this mysterious HQ-9C which is an active missile and is thought to be a medium range missile. For HQ-16 series there is the HQ-16F who's export version has 160km of range and a dual mode active seeker which is very good for a medium range air defense missile.
HQ-9 is for long range defense with huge missiles, not the same role.
Not a lot of info on HQ-16F. I could not find any info saying it has dual mode active seeker. And not sure the 160km range is for export version. Even if these are all true, the PL-15 adapted surface-to-air missile still has a lot of advantages.

Smaller and lighter; Less expensive (my speculation, but conventional medium range surface-to-air missile is quite expensive compared to air-to-air missile); economy of scale and ease of production; data-link capability.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
HQ-9 is for long range defense with huge missiles, not the same role.
Not a lot of info on HQ-16F. I could not find any info saying it has dual mode active seeker. And not sure the 160km range is for export version. Even if these are all true, the PL-15 adapted surface-to-air missile still has a lot of advantages.

Smaller and lighter; Less expensive (my speculation, but conventional medium range surface-to-air missile is quite expensive compared to air-to-air missile); economy of scale and ease of production; data-link capability.
"HQ-9C" is this thing:

ezgif-8e651dfdf4ce5b.jpg

Not much is known about this system or if it even is called "HQ-9C" but it's some sort of medium/short range air defense system, as for HQ-16FE stats:
ezgif-8427544605641f.jpg006i7G9Vly1hfinmwsbvfj31400u0al1.jpg
Second picture says HQ-16FE missile has a dual mode radar seeker capable of both semi-active and active homing and has a maximum kill boundary of 160km against fighter aircrafts and also says HQ-16FE is capable of intercepting tactical ballistic missiles and supersonic cruise missiles as well, first picture says the system is capable of tracking 12 targets while engaging 8 of them simultaneously. As the name suggest "HQ-16FE" should probably mean there is a certain HQ-16F system in PLA service. This system seems like an extremely potent medium range air defense considering it could do both anti-missile and anti-aircraft work with considerable range. PL-15 turned into a medium range air defense wouldn't be able to do anti-missile work without significant modification and with the 5.7 conflict, anti-missile work should become a priority for modern air defenses, plus with HQ-16F presumably already in PLA service such a PL-15 air defense system would be unnecessary IMO. It is better to just strap some PL-12s and PL-10s to a Mengshi and call it a day with a dirt-cheap short-range air defense system(Which IMO China isn't lacking in this department either with Type 625 etc.) but could potentially do well in export since it would probably be dirt cheap and helps PLAAF get rid of old PL-12 stock. As for datalink capability, iirc PLA has been working on a triservice datalink system that could be able to link everything together especially with their emphasis on digitized warfare.
 
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