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Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

This is a discussion on Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by chuck731 No, the USN genuinely think of zumwalts as destroyers. There was a separate project to design ...

  1. #196
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck731 View Post
    No, the USN genuinely think of zumwalts as destroyers. There was a separate project to design a cruiser counterpart to the zumwalts. The cruiser didn't have zumwalt's tumblehome hull, and was designed for blue water fleet air defence. It was cancelled when future air threat to the fleet was underestimated while cost of Iraq war escalated.
    The CGX program was specifically designed to replace the Tico with a future guided missile cruiser combatant principally geared towards air defense.

    My guess is that ultimately there will be a cruiser replacement. It may well end up being for the next 20 years to be the Burke III. But, sooner or later there will be a new purpose built replacement.

    I understand full well that the Zumwalts are "officially" classed destroyers. I have been involved with and following these process for over 30 years now. And that is fine. People can call things whatever they decide, for whatever reasons, particularly the Navy and Government people who get to make the official designations.

    However, none of that changes the fact that with their displacement, with their heavy direct fire capability, with their heavy ground strike or surface strike guided missile capability, they are what would be traditionally known as cruisers...and cruisers which are also extremely capable in the air defense and ASW roles as well.

    There has been a lot of talk for several years at the US Naval Institute about this and the "unofficial" consensus is that they are in fact cruiser type vessels that the US Navy and US government has decided to call destroyers.

    But all of this talk about the Zumwalt is really off topic here on the PLAN Type 055 thread and should be moved over to the Zumwalt thread itself.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    History: The destroyer was, hundred years ago, a small vessel to protect cruisers and battleships against torpedo boats. The original name was torpedo boat destroyer. But when you see how many meanings the word frigate has had over the last six or more centuries ......

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Found a new picture (at least to me) over here



    At least it is a good way to kick off all the bloody Monday blues...

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FarkTypeSoldier View Post
    Found a new picture (at least to me) over here



    At least it is a good way to kick off all the bloody Monday blues...
    Reports are claiming that shipyards will start building it soon.

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FarkTypeSoldier View Post
    Found a new picture (at least to me) over here



    At least it is a good way to kick off all the bloody Monday blues...
    Of course you know that's an 052D right? Unrelated to 055?
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Yes, i was reading yesterday that JN was preparing a hallway for a type 055 build. One hallway already has the 4th type 052D in it under construction.

    Interestingly, i saw some discussion on a site on a aerial photo showing the carrier mockup module at JN, and also a bow section of a new warship nearby.
    The discussion was that the bow section when taken into comparison with what the size of the carrier mockup appears to be, shows that the bow section nearby looks noticeably larger than that that would be of a new 052D build......hence the speculation it could be an early build module for a type 055. Just speculation of course..........but!

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FarkTypeSoldier View Post
    Found a new picture (at least to me) over here



    At least it is a good way to kick off all the bloody Monday blues...
    nice pictures but I think you should've posted it in the 052 thread

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SinoSoldier View Post
    Reports are claiming that shipyards will start building it soon.
    Actually, three of them are already built, with a fourth building and pieces for a fifth also seen. That's because it's a picture of the Type 052D.

    Anyhow, I am sure others are pointing out the same thing.

    Here's what that baby looks like in real life


    That's why that pic and the discussions regarding it really should be on the Type 052 thread.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Monday blues certainly makes me blur... Sorry for the confusion.

    But the thread in Chinese was having 055 mentioned

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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Here's the US version of a 21st century cruiser/heavy destroyer. Ready to launch in the next few days.


    Now that is advanced US naval ship building and technology. AGS, PVS, new 3D radar, etc. And soon to sport Rail Guns and Lasers. Too bad the US is only building three of them.

    This is the type of "leap" the PLAN wants to make with the Type 055, and we will see what they put forth for their major, new surface combatant design.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    From the current perspective, Zumwalt looks like an abortive side path in warship development. Conventional warships typified by Burke still looks like the wave of the future.

    China is a country with less experience, and its R&D establishment still lags sunstantially behind those of the US. As a result there is intrinsically greater risk of failure when China makes bold commitments to unproven technologies than would be the case with the US. It is irrational for China to step out of the American technological path when it doesn't have to. The only reason I can think of why it would have to is it is facing imminent war with the US and can foresee inevitable defeat unless it could, against all adds, pull off a Hail Mary technological miracle to stave off defeat. In any other circumstance I see no reason why it should not let the US bear the risk of new technology and simply follow behind. I think the Chinese will follow the main path of American warship building, and any follow-on the 052D will likely be conventional.

    It is cheaper to copy the proven, and it is wise to be cheap when possible.
    Last edited by chuck731; 10-18-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Head View Post
    Here's the US version of a 21st century cruiser/heavy destroyer. Ready to launch in the next few days.

    Now that is advanced US naval ship building and technology. AGS, PVS, new 3D radar, etc. And soon to sport Rail Guns and Lasers. Too bad the US is only building three of them.
    No disrespect intended jeff, but what does this got to do with type 055 ?(assuming it exists) You know well that china cant replicate zummwalt destroyer, whats the point in posting this?
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    We need not see 055 be a tumble home hull, with a focus on two massive 155mm cannons, however there are technologies on Zumwalt which are a natural transition from even today's "conventional" ships, such as increased survivability, improved electronics and processing, greater crew comforts, higher automation, and an increase in stealth (although air defense cruisers may be less inclined to pursue RF VLO as dogmatically given they will be expected to light up their radars anyway, making stealth less of a priority), as well as integrated electric propulsion.

    All these things should be seen in some degree in future warships, and we recently heard about a breakthrough in IEPS, although I'm not sure if it'll be present on 055.


    Personally I think zumwalt might have been a better and more cost effective ship if they'd gone for a more conventional flared hull, given up on the AGS for a single, more conventional 5 inch gun (or even modernized the 8 inch Mk-71!), and filled the remaining space with VLS, and fully developed the DBR's S band component, in effect giving them a more modern multirole air defense cruiser rather than a somewhat bloated, heavy gun touting destroyer, which is an impressive ship by all means, but is of arguable use in a modern conflict partly due to their emphasis on land attack, partly due to high cost (meaning they won't exactly be used to duke it out against submarines, despite their impressive ASW suite), and partly due to their sheer small numbers.
    Zumwalts, by all accounts, will load most of its VLS with tomahawks anyway, and it will act effectively as a glorified arsenal ship (but it is a job which a burke could do as well, with 16 cells left over). The AGS will only be used in land attack situations, and even then, the ship will have to be within a few hundred kms of its target, which I wouldn't like to risk, if I were an admiral, if the enemy still held a competent A2AD infrastructure. And if the enemy is more degraded, then chances are a couple of burkes could do the same naval gunfire support job as well.

    Zumwalt's stealth could allow it to get closer to its target than burkes, and fire tomahawks to strike a few hundred kms inland, but one has to wonder just how much more inland does one need to be, and whether they'd be willing to risk a lone zumwalt going in close to let off cruise missiles, where a modified ohio SSGN could probably do a far better job, with greater stealth.


    Zumwalt and her sisters will be formidable ships of course, but I wonder if they are ships looking for a mission. Its single X band radar, relatively low VLS count, emphasis on land attack, high cost, and expected low availability due to low numbers, will unfortunately stifle many of the other technological innovations within the ship, and it is a shame that the USN is resorting to a Flight III burke to replace their Ticonderoga CGs, instead of a more sensibly designed Zumwalt. Some reports even say that Burke Flight III will not even have a different hull to Flight IIA, meaning VLS will remain at 96, a decrease from the Tico's 128!


    So I quite eagerly await what 055 will end up being. Hopefully it will leverage some of the technological innovations of Zumwalt, namely greater processing power, stealth, survivability, and in particular, IEPS. But at the same time I hope they don't go overboard with a risky tumbolehome hull, excessive VLO shaping, and there's definitely no need for a new main gun or a ridiculous peripheral VLS. Instead, they should stick with a more conventional flared hull, retain the 130mm gun which will be able to fire ERGM type rounds anyway, and fill the hull with as many CCL VLS as practically and safely as possible.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kroko View Post
    No disrespect intended jeff, but what does this got to do with type 055 ?(assuming it exists) You know well that china cant replicate zummwalt destroyer, whats the point in posting this?
    Well 055 from its generally accepted specs comes most close to zumwalt in many regards, so it's just a friendly cross post, anticipating when PLAN gets their own "next generation large destroyer".

    He certainly wasn't insinuating PLAN was going to develop a ship like zumwalt. Hell, I'd be disappointed if they did.
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    Re: Type 055 DDG - PLAN's Next Generation Destroyer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kroko View Post
    No disrespect intended jeff, but what does this got to do with type 055 ?(assuming it exists) You know well that china cant replicate zummwalt destroyer, whats the point in posting this?
    The point is simple, like the Type 055 is going to represent a leap forward in design and technologies for the PLAN, the Zumwalt represents the same thing for the US.

    Yes, the AGS is something that a Type 055 and others will not add...but the AGS is a stepping stone on the Zumwalt for something much more powerful and much more applicable to naval warfare (as opposed to just land attack) and that is the Rail Gun technology already being field tested and that is intended to be placed on these ships. That weapon will allow for missile defense, land attack, and naval warfare...all in one.

    The PVS is innovative and represents a very direct path towards having VLS capability that is simply more survivable.

    The integrated power ssytem will add significant flexibility and effectiveness to these vessels, or any vessels.

    All of these, and the other technologies that are being built into the Zumwalt are technologies that will ultimately find their way into other nation's vessels. They give us significant technological issues and application to talk about that can be applicable to the Type 055 and any other new design.

    That's the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck731
    From the current perspective, Zumwalt looks like an abortive side path in warship development.
    While there are only three being built at present. There is continual talk about building more, either for the current role or others and making use of the hull form and platform.

    As they get out there and preform, we shall see if any of that becomes reality.

    In any case, the technologies being presented and then put to sea, will provide a threshold for future vessels as well, whether they use this hull form of not...so it will be far from any kind of "abortive side path."

    Much more a harbinger for the future.
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