J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[plawolf]

I have noticed that in various forums/blogs people have complained lack of internal gun in J-20... why? I don't get why fighter like J-20 would need a gun. Since Vietnam war short range heat seeking missiles (AIM-9 etc) have been primary killers in air combat and probably are going to be that in future conflicts, especially if ROE demand that enemy must be identified before engagement.

Back in 2007 reporter asked from a Finnish Hornet pilot why they need expensive JHMCS helmets and new AIM-9x missiles when Hornets have guns and the pilot answered that in modern dog fight only fool or really desperate pilot is trying to get a gun kill. He also mentioned that if you run out of heat seekers you get out of combat. Unfortunately it was a very short radio report so pilot didn't have time to talk much.

They said the same thing before the Vietnam war, but quickly changed their tune once real combat made all their theories defunct.

The thing that Vietnam proved for air combat is that a missile is only as good as the seeker.

Modern day seekers are beyond the imagining of what they had back then, but its not only seeker technology that has improved, so have countermeasures such as jammers and decoys.

The AIM9X and PL10 might look impressive on paper and do well in tests, but what happens if war breaks out tomorrow and you find out your enemy has a decoy that can reliably spoof it?

The gun is your ultimate insurance policy. Just like insurance, you hope you never need it, but will be damned glad you have it if the worst does happen.

Something else to consider is that with modern day all aspect MAWS, your best chance to get a sure kill may be to sneak you on your opponent and let the impact of shells on his plane be the first warning he gets that he is under attack rather than risk a missile launch that will tip off your prey by lighting up his MAWS and giving the enemy pilot precious extra seconds to react and potentially turn the tables on you.

Back to the J20's gun. I am struggling to see where on its back they could mount it as the J20 has a very flat profit, so there really isn't anywhere obvious they could put it that would impose no limits on canard movement and still get clear line of sight to in front of the nose.

The best remaining place for it would be on the opposite side to where they have the IFR probe, or even slightly further back.

It could be that they reserved the space internally, but just didn't bother to install the gun on the early prototypes.

 

[lllchairmanlll]

They said the same thing before the Vietnam war, but quickly changed their tune once real combat made all their theories defunct.

The thing that Vietnam proved for air combat is that a missile is only as good as the seeker.

Modern day seekers are beyond the imagining of what they had back then, but its not only seeker technology that has improved, so have countermeasures such as jammers and decoys.

The AIM9X and PL10 might look impressive on paper and do well in tests, but what happens if war breaks out tomorrow and you find out your enemy has a decoy that can reliably spoof it?

The gun is your ultimate insurance policy. Just like insurance, you hope you never need it, but will be damned glad you have it if the worst does happen.

Something else to consider is that with modern day all aspect MAWS, your best chance to get a sure kill may be to sneak you on your opponent and let the impact of shells on his plane be the first warning he gets that he is under attack rather than risk a missile launch that will tip off your prey by lighting up his MAWS and giving the enemy pilot precious extra seconds to react and potentially turn the tables on you.

Back to the J20's gun. I am struggling to see where on its back they could mount it as the J20 has a very flat profit, so there really isn't anywhere obvious they could put it that would impose no limits on canard movement and still get clear line of sight to in front of the nose.

The best remaining place for it would be on the opposite side to where they have the IFR probe, or even slightly further back.

It could be that they reserved the space internally, but just didn't bother to install the gun on the early prototypes.

Do we see a gun on T-50? Yes we do.

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Then why we have not seen any gun nor even sign of it on the J-20? Certainly not because it is unnecessary. I guess we will need to wait and see until the 2016 prototype comes out.

 

[Blitzo]

Back to the J20's gun. I am struggling to see where on its back they could mount it as the J20 has a very flat profit, so there really isn't anywhere obvious they could put it that would impose no limits on canard movement and still get clear line of sight to in front of the nose.

The best remaining place for it would be on the opposite side to where they have the IFR probe, or even slightly further back.

It could be that they reserved the space internally, but just didn't bother to install the gun on the early prototypes.

I think they very easily could have had the gun on the prototypes, but we'd never know it's there. Consider where F-22's gun is, and how hard would be to actually positively identify that as the gun door without knowing it's already there:

J-20's could be anywhere in a similar "line" on either side, where it won't impede canard movement, drawn crudely:

... and of course it would be as difficult to see as F-22's, given our J-20 pictures are not as high resolution as those of F-22, and earlier J-20 prototypes (where we did have a few higher res pictures)

Do we see a gun on T-50? Yes we do.

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Then why we have not seen any gun nor even sign of it on the J-20? Certainly not because it is unnecessary. I guess we will need to wait and see until the 2016 prototype comes out.

Like I said, J-20's gun port will be very difficult to identify for us. Our pictures of J-20 are low res, and J-20 also has a darker colour scheme... and if it's anything like F-22's gun port (and there's no reason to believe it won't be), the surface overlaying the gun port will be almost completely smooth.

 

[lllchairmanlll]

My guess is that it will be mounted somewhere like this on the J20. Remember that PLAAF use 23MM duo-barrel gun, as compared to Vulcan which is 6-barrel. So, unless they decide to develop a new gun for jet fighter, this legacy should occupy less room and requires fewer opening area. Anyway, this will not become a problem and I think CAC surely will mount a gun on the mighty dragon

 

[Blitzo]

I have noticed that in various forums/blogs people have complained lack of internal gun in J-20... why? I don't get why fighter like J-20 would need a gun.

Yeah... first of all, you should wonder whether the people in other forums and blogs are correct in claiming there's no gun in J-20.

Logical steps:
-do we have evidence of a gun on J-20
-what constitutes evidence of a gun on a stealth fighter such as J-20
-what do the gun ports of stealth fighters look like (F-22, T-50, F-35)
-is there any site on J-20 which resembles any of the gun ports on any of the other stealth fighters (yes, F-22's gun port is almost impossible to find if one doesn't know where it is, and yes, J-20 can very much have sites on its upper fuselage where a gun can be placed similar to F-22 with a similar degree of unobtrusiveness)
-conclusion: the fact that we do not have an obvious gun port on J-20 is not evidence that J-20 lacks a gun, and if anything the fact that it doesn't have an obvious gun port should be expected given it is meant to be a high end stealth fighter

 

[Blitzo]

My guess is that it will be mounted somewhere like this on the J20. Remember that PLAAF use 23MM duo-barrel gun, as compared to Vulcan which is 6-barrel. So, unless they decide to develop a new gun for jet fighter, this legacy should occupy less room and requires fewer opening area. Anyway, this will not become a problem and I think CAC surely will mount a gun on the mighty dragon

Whether CAC will mount a gun on J-20 is not really the question we need to ask -- we should be looking at whether it's logical to assume that J-20 at present does not have a gun... and my post above addresses that point.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Whether CAC will mount a gun on J-20 is not really the question we need to ask -- we should be looking at whether it's logical to assume that J-20 at present does not have a gun... and my post above addresses that point.

All great points, yes you need a gun, period. Note that the F-35B and C have no internal gun, rather a gun pod on the fuse mounts. I would imagine if the J-20 had an internal gun, we would know about it? I really think we would, and the fact that it does not appear to have one?? raises the possibilities that 1. this is a prototype, and to date has flown with O armament of any kind? 2. they might elect to use the external gun-pod. 3. It may be there, but is well hidden, we just do not know?

So debate will continue, but I believe that fact that T-50 and F-35 do have guns, is almost certain to make a gun on board rather certain. Much like a GI carrying an M-4, but hat a Beretta strapped on his hip, they just make you feel better!

 

[Blitzo]

All great points, yes you need a gun, period. Note that the F-35B and C have no internal gun, rather a gun pod on the fuse mounts. I would imagine if the J-20 had an internal gun, we would know about it? I really thing we would, and the fact that it does not appear to have one??

Um no you've missed my point entirely. My last few posts were trying to say that if J-20 does have a gun port, we probably wouldn't be able to see it, because:
A: gun ports on a stealth fighter can be very difficult to visually identify (such as F-22's gun port which is small and almost completely smooth compared to the rest of its topside fuselage)
B: our pictures of J-20 are all fairly low resolution so if there is a gun port that might be visible in higher res photos, the current photos would not be fair evidence to judge


Putting it another way -- the fact that J-20 doesn't "appear to have" a gun is not a good reason to believe it doesn't have a gun, because it would be reasonable to assume that any gun port would be almost impossible for us to identify given the resolution and angles of the photos we get, as well as the fact that a gun port can be very well hidden.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Um no you've missed my point entirely. My last few posts were trying to say that if J-20 does have a gun port, we probably wouldn't be able to see it, because:
A: gun ports on a stealth fighter can be very difficult to visually identify (such as F-22's gun port which is small and almost completely smooth compared to the rest of its topside fuselage)
B: our pictures of J-20 are all fairly low resolution so if there is a gun port that might be visible in higher res photos, the current photos would not be fair evidence to judge


Putting it another way -- the fact that J-20 doesn't "appear to have" a gun is not a good reason to believe it doesn't have a gun, because it would be reasonable to assume that any gun port would be almost impossible for us to identify given the resolution and angles of the photos we get, as well as the fact that a gun port can be very well hidden.

and my point is that at present we have 0 evidence of a gun or gun port, its quite likely that even if an internal gun is planned, that the 6 very early prototypes/LRIP aircraft are not yet fit with the weapon, as it would serve no real function other than to prove the gun fitment, it would be excess weight, and that weight would lower the thrust to weight ratio, and initial performance numbers? I am rather certain that it will have a gun, or at least a gun pod.

Its customary that early prototypes are usually not armed, and will remain test articles rather than operational aircraft?

 

[Blitzo]

and my point is that at present we have 0 evidence of a gun or gun port, its quite likely that even if an internal gun is planned, that the 6 very early prototypes/LRIP aircraft are not yet fit with the weapon, as it would serve no real function other than to prove the gun fitment, it would be excess weight, and that weight would lower the thrust to weight ratio, and initial performance numbers? I am rather certain that it will have a gun, or at least a gun pod.

Its customary that early prototypes are usually not armed, and will remain test articles rather than operational aircraft?

Yes, we have 0 evidence for a gun port -- but we also have 0 evidence against a gun port.

My point being that even when there is a gun port on eventual production aircraft we probably wouldn't be able to see it if the photos we get are the same quality as we have at present.

In other words, debating over whether current J-20 prototypes has a gun based off current photo evidence may be pointless and illogical, because photos may not useful for determining the existence of a gun on the aircraft regardless of whether it is a prototype or a production aircraft.
I repeat, if J-20 does have a gun, we probably would not know about it and we would be unable to ID it, given the quality of our current photos and also how unobtrusive a gun port can be on a stealth fighter.

So saying "we can't see a gun therefore the prototypes do not have a gun" is illogical.